Culture Focused Practice

Hey, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper here, and you're listening to the Culture Focused Practice podcast.

Today is one of my favorite styles of episode. We're doing an owner's room special.

So you should know by now. The owner's room is where we ditch any sort of polish or structure or listicles or bulleted items, et cetera, there's no professionalism. It's out the window. And my favorite thing, what is becoming, my favorite thing I should say, is I also have a guest with me. Yay. Second one ever. So with me today is Nicole Brewer, a let her say hi. Hi Nicole.

Hello. I'm excited. This is, I was telling you the other day, this is your, I'm your second guest, but this is my Yes first podcast.

Yeah. That surprises me. Actually, I, I think I was shocked to hear that. 'cause I feel like you should be on way more much. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's like as much qualities you have to offer too, you know? So. Okay, lemme tell you just real quick about Nicole and then we're gonna get straight into the owner's room stuff.

Okay. So Nicole is the founder and owner of Rethink Therapy, which is a thriving group practice based in Las Vegas, that was established 2016. It's known in the community for an innovative training program called Rethink Residency, which is designed to support newly graduated therapists in the licensure process, while also equipping them with skills to thrive in a sustainable group practice environment, which is fucking awesome.

So in addition to leadership, like I said, founder and owner of that practice, she is also an EMDR certified therapist and consultant.

Recently, Nicole launched Rethink Your Practice, which is a consulting brand dedicated to helping group practice owners build high performing teams and operationally sound businesses.

Ah, I love that. Okay. And then through the consulting practice, through Rethink Your Practice, Nicole guides leaders using her five essential pillars of group practice infrastructure, hiring, onboarding, training, utilization, and retention. Really incredible.

And then let's get up to date. Current passion lies in helping group practice owners gain real traction in hiring and retaining highly skilled clinicians, ensuring that great care starts with well-supported therapists.

I am so pumped. So again, the owner's room is where we get real about what's going on behind the scenes emotionally and strategically. And today's episode is in perfect alignment with Nicole and what she has to offer, all of which will be linked in the show notes and also if you're watching on YouTube, in the YouTube description, just as a heads up.

So today is for every single leader, IE all of us ,who has let silence speak louder than the values because of fear of losing someone.

Before we go further, make sure you subscribe if this resonates with you because the more you do that, the more like-minded people will find this and it will likely resonate with them.

We're gonna cover five questions, and then we're gonna do a real life scenario. And what I love about this is that the guest gets to pick the questions, so, these are questions we haven't practiced or talked through. Mm-hmm. We have just looked undecided and we're gonna get straight into it.

Question number one, Nicole.

Mm-hmm.

Have I ever let someone coast or misalign because I was afraid they'd leave.

So it'd be Have you ever let someone coast or misalign because you were afraid they'd leave?

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I have. Um, I think that like how this has played out is probably like, evolved a little bit. Like the level of coasting.

Yeah. Yeah.

So in the early years, I just like couldn't afford any administrative loss.

So when I would lose an intake coordinator, all I would think about is how. I would be ran over with the workload myself. And so I felt like I would put up with maybe work productivity or a lack of follow through, or not following policies and procedures in a way that I know I didn't like, but I just also didn't have any margin.

I wasn't good at foresight at that point, and I didn't have enough margin to shoulder the burden of them being gone. And so I feel like I made a lot of decisions early on due to just spreading myself way too thin and not asking for help soon enough. Um, and so like that really resonates with me early on.

Just being, like, being afraid of like, ugh, if I say something, this is ultimately going to lead to their departure, and then I'm going to have to absorb this like workload.

I think later on how it has evolved sometimes is not being afraid of them leaving because I'm, that's a fear that I no longer really hold in the same way.

If somebody's not aligned, I want, I want them to go not in a way of like get out, but more in a way, like, I want you to be in a situation that works for you and I need something that works for me.

Um, but more like, almost like, Ooh, how does this look to the team type of deal. Yep. Yes. Um, I feel like is more, I have to regularly check that piece, uh, if that makes sense. Like, how does this look and like, almost being like way too absorbed with like, what does the team think about this, you know?

Yeah, i'm thinking about this almost like, um, almost like the evolution of practice ownership or evolution of leadership, you know? Yeah. It's like, initially it's, yeah. I'm not gonna say it's entirely fear-based, but initially the decisions around like what we do with someone who's maybe misaligned or just kind of coasting, and maybe, maybe underperforming, you know, but they're not causing enough of an issue.

And so it's, it's almost like this initial stuff, it's really fear-based, because in the beginning, especially, I don't, I would be hard pressed to find somebody who had the infrastructure set up at the outset.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. To seamlessly transition one person out and another person in for sure. There's no fucking way. It's not not there. It's not there. It's not there.

Mm-hmm.

You don't even know what to ask for at that, at that point. Yeah. Nope.

Yeah. It took a solid year of having a marketing director in place, and I, I mean, sincerely, a solid year, and I told her when she started, um, we've never had this role.

Here are broad responsibilities, but it's gonna evolve. Like I mm-hmm. I don't, I don't have any felt sense for what this is like. So you need to know from the outset, like, this, this thing we're doing, we are co building. Like, we're co-creating this as we go.

Yeah.

But I think on that timeline, there's initially that fear-based, like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna do this? Mm-hmm. Or how will I either absorb the work, or how am I gonna get somebody else in to train? Mm-hmm. I need to get everything documented. Yeah. Because nothing is, or it's very, very like way too loosely documented. Yeah. And all of the, the nuance lives inside the person's head.

Yeah. But then you get to this other place. I don't know if it's a, if it's, um, like a spectrum, like almost like a pendulum clock swing, you know? Or if it's like there's more evolution that takes place and we're just not at that point yet. But then I, I think eventually people reach that second thing you're talking about, which is God, how is the team gonna respond to this? Is this known? Like, does everybody know this person is coasting?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

I think before what I also noticed would cause an action for me is I felt like I had to have all the pieces of the solution determined before I even started to broach the conversation of is this a good fit uh, or letting the person go.

Um, 'cause side note, I actually haven't let too many people go. Over the years it's been more of a conversation of is this the right fit and people opt out. So like firing is, is is something that I've only really done a couple of times.

But uh, like I would be really obsessed with the solution and then at some point I realized like one of the skills I know that I'm good at and confident in is getting a solution. And I don't need to have this all done out in advance. In fact, it's better if I just do it in real time because it's like a treat to myself.

Like, and I, I, I almost had to do some mind work on like, you love solutions. So It's a fun day for you when you get to go into the office and it's all about solution.

That's a movement heavy day. So those are fun days. Those aren't high stress days. You don't need to ruin days and weeks in advance. Just go in and like, this is horrible to think, but like, just act like it's like Christmas, come early, you know? Yeah.

So like that mindset shift changed and then also every single time I have waited, I have lived to regret it.

You know what I mean? Like waited in terms of like, you know what, May's not the best month, so let me wait till June. Like, no, I should have done it in May. In fact, I probably should have done it in August. And I'm trying to really like lean into this whole, as soon as I have the inclination, move, because like my intuition really has never been wrong.

It's my fear of my intuition that has caused me to misstep. I feel like,

Yeah. There's two things that come up for me right away. I, and actually there's a third question that's been like poking me this whole time. Yeah.

One is the Gino Wickman stuff, you know, in Traction. He writes about 36 hours of pain.

Like when you know, oh yeah, it's time to fire someone and need just 36 hours and needs to be done. Mm-hmm. Like boom period. Yeah. So this like drawing it out. Yeah. It, it literally never helps. And the reality is that this person also knows to it to some extent this isn't working. Yeah, it's not working for them either.

And so yeah, I think that's, that's one thing that I was thinking about. The second thing was you said not verbatim, but your 'em, but mm-hmm. Your instinct is pretty spot on. Yeah. I think I'm, I, this is my own stuff coming up because I'm so, I would agree, my instinct tends to be right, but I don't , I don't like to make a move without multiple other almost points of data around me.

So I think I'm wondering, again, there's two questions. One is, yeah, I think I'm wondering how you do that.

Like, is there a, either not like a gut check system you have in place necessarily, but something that you do in addition to this isn't working. And you know, I know, I know this isn't working, it's not gonna end well.

Yeah.

And here's all this other data that would support this. And so these are the, you know, not to get litigious, I guess would be the language. Yeah. And not to be like HR focused, but almost like the, the CYAI hate, I hate, I hate CYAI hate that concept. I hate the need to even think about it, but, but yeah, like the documentation or feedback from other people around them, you know?

So this is one question and I'm gonna say the other, just so I don't forget. Mm-hmm. You know, we, we started off talking about like the misalignment piece and I think you referenced administrative people. I'm also thinking about clinicians.

Yeah, for sure.

Is there, is the approach different, you know what I mean? Like, can you, what you said about the admin and letting someone coast or misaligned, because then you'd have to take on the work and there's fear around finances and.

You know, now it's like, fuck, is the team gonna be upset? How's it gonna impact the team? Yeah. Is it the exact same thought process with a clinician being a misalignment? yeah, Like pick your poison today, you know, the misalignment thing with clinicians or then also this your own gut mm-hmm juxtaposed with, is there additional data you look at, too?

Yeah. Yeah. Those are good questions. Okay. Let me like weave through. Um, both. Okay. So like, starting with like, how do I know there's misalignment? 'cause the way I'm talking about, it's almost like I'm like, I had a bad vibe and so I fired.

It's like, yeah, in my gut, my chakras were off. I love chakras for the record. I'm not trying to like hate, but like there's a misalignment, you know?

Yeah. It was a misalignment. So that's bad for you, you know, like,

Yeah. No, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. So, but also I do think some people, I absolutely, my gut is spot on more often than not. Sure. Yeah. But I like, even if, you know, I still want shit around me.

Yeah, for sure. So, uh, it is a little more detailed than that. And this has actually been something I've been focusing on a bit because I actually don't functionally I only have one person that reports to me anymore, so I'm not doing these functions, so I had to, I had to figure out how to teach this.

Um, so like the first thing is everybody in my group has a literal number they're accountable to. And so when that's the case and having a literal number and sort of checkpoints, it becomes pretty easy to see when somebody's performing or not performing.

We also have pretty detailed job descriptions on like what responsibilities are and what people should be doing when. So we have about a four checkpoint process where there's a coaching, a verbal, a written, and a pip.

So people can jump at any point, but that doesn't typically happen. What's more common is, I know you follow the EOS framework is having the GWC gets it once it capacity, like basically making sure is the person aligned to the conversation.

That's what really causes things to change more than anything is like a, if somebody's not performing and we've had a coaching and maybe a verbal, at that point, we tend to like stylistically say like, Hey, like administrative or therapist, it seems like something's not clicking here. Like, talk me through this. Like, what's working, what's not?

We're just having, one of our values is authenticity. We're having a very authentic conversation and like, we mean what we say and we say what we mean.

And so, if I think that a therapist maybe has a low retention rate because they're so very, like, for lack of a better term, like uninspiring for change that clients just can't even see themselves doing the work.

I would, I'm known to say things like, I gotta be honest with you, as I'm talking to you, I feel lost in this conversation and I can't help but wonder if your clients might feel the same.

You know what I mean? Stuff like that. Yeah. And then so when you get authentic like that, it's, it's pretty easy to, to, to a conclusion.

Even if the person maybe doesn't possess those same skills quite yet in their own journey or even that same insight, they can quickly see like, Ooh, maybe this isn't a fit, or, I want to be here, and so let's talk logistics. Uh, maybe I'm not here yet, but let's talk logistics of how I can. Right. So demonstrating like they want it, you know?

And so yes, I do follow and document that, and the team does, and then, uh, basically the numbers just show if somebody's off and we're checking that on a rhythmic basis, to make sure, so weekly, monthly, you know.

But then we also don't hold their hand. Like it's an annual number thing for us. They either, if they don't make it, they're on a pip, like mm-hmm. That's cultural, you know what I mean? They know.

That's super helpful. Uh, yeah. I feel like you're getting at both questions. I also, I don't think I realized how similar our approaches are to even the disciplinary stuff.

So like we have a four step, almost exactly the same, but your language for step one is different from ours. In essence, that's what we're doing is coaching and support. Yeah.

And then also all the way through to mm-hmm self of the therapist in conversation. Yeah. When we're trying to explore what the fuck is going on.

Yeah.

Only gonna say like, Ooh. Yeah. I know how I feel when I sit with you. I can't help but wonder if that is the experience of other people.

This maybe isn't a question for today, but that just makes me think about even like therapeutic style, you know, where I think about for me it's the here and now. It's the existential slant. It's the Harry Aponte stuff, You know, it is the self of a therapist. yeah.

But I wonder about somebody who, don't know. I think that your, it seems like, anyway, your comfort level with emotional depth is high.

Mm-hmm.

But I think if somebody has like a low level of, let's say they score low on something like meta emotions, you know, which is a Gottman mm-hmm. Concept or a Gottman piece. Oh, they call it emotion dismissing now.

My point is, somebody who's feeling about feelings is, like, their tolerance is kind of low. I wonder if those people, who might have a low tolerance for the emotionally deep conversations or the ones who are pulling inward for stuff to, to say like, oh God, I think this might be happening Mm-hmm. putting it out there and there's not a clear resolution.

I wonder if people who are emotion dismissing or tend towards being low in meta emotions are not gonna do that conversation, like they're struggle with it, or they're going to be much more cut and dry. This is the problem, I need you to do this.

Mm-hmm.

I don't, I don't have any idea actually. I'm just thinking as I'm talking like, oh fuck, I wonder if that's literally, it's going to be harder for somebody who doesn't do this thing by nature of how they exist in the world.

Yeah. I think it is. And I have found that those are conversations where we're coming to a conclusion together that I'm highly guiding or those are the times where there's been fires.

Because the insight is so low or the emotional tolerance is so low that the person can't stay with a realistic solution based on the set of responsibilities that are in front of them.

So we've had this both with admin and with therapists where it's like, you're saying this, but this is the action. And like, outta respect for you. We don't wanna just like keep having the same conversation over and over again, so now we're at a decision point. Mm-hmm. And all we have to go off of is history.

That's what we're gonna use is our measure of if we continue and we don't see enough progress here for this to make sense. Out of respect for continued investment in our team and out of respect for you, because we don't want you in a position you're not thriving in.

Like, those have been times where it's been like, I guess like that's a termination, right? Yeah. They're not electing or telling them. Um,

I actually love that. Like we, all we have to use is our history and based on this. Yeah.

Yeah.

We, you know, if we take what we know and we continue it forward, what's the logical conclusion? Like, what's the logical outgrowth of the thing that has been taking place consistently?

Yeah, yeah,

Yeah. I mean, that's, man, that's great.

So again, I don't think, I, I don't think that like, this is where intuition, I don't think that I like ever thought that through until I had to teach it to a leadership team.

You know, when you're working with clients and there's a lot of like magical thinking going on, and you're like, you are like, yeah, these are really great ideas, but just, um, like, they've literally never come to fruition, so the chances that they will now are slim to none and borderline we're in, like, we're, we're, we're thinking mythically right now. Right.

And so, like, you know, like, they'd be like, well, I just think they can. And, and I, I would be like, yeah, this employee maybe can, but they've literally not once ever.

So like, let's just take this down to brass tacks now.

Literally call a spade a spade. Like they can. Sure, they're capable and they haven't. Yeah, they haven't yet. And how much longer do you wanna wait until they might.

Yeah. Whatever it was you just said, just made me think about chat gPT. And I know your relationship with, I know you heavily used chat.

I'm same. I have a lot of-

Intimate,

big conversation. Intimate. Well, I wasn't gonna say that, but if you want to that's fine.

I can, I can say that. Yeah.

But my thought is yes, same. I created a whole leadership manifesto. Like how do we show up as leaders? I know how I show up and I know what is right and isn't like what I want and what I don't want.

Yeah. But if you were to ask me, Tara, just gimme the bullet points. Yeah. I wouldn't have any fucking idea. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Gimme a scenario and I'll tell you what I would do.

Yeah, for sure.

Chat. Give me my bullet points, like, okay. Chat, gimme some scenarios, ask me some questions. Just detail out how I show up as a leader and what are the key things that I always want to ensure either take place or inform the conversation or circle around us as we're like engaging in something.

That is so helpful that now that's like mm-hmm. It's a leadership manifesto. It's of me, but also it's leadership team. Now we are all responsible for this thing. Yeah, I can't do that either. And so that's where my bestie comes in. My bestie Chat.

Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. I like that.

Okay. I have more questions. You wanna keep going?

Let's do it. Yeah

Question number two, am I staying nice to feel in control or to feel liked?

Yeah. This is like a ongoing life struggle for me. The answer is yes, I do fall into this and I'm sort of in the place where I'm like, uh, maybe this is gonna be a lifetime journey for me because I had to like do some significant like therapy work around like this idea of being a nice person.

Like, I'm bad if I'm not being nice. And if I'm setting boundaries, I'm not nice. And I have to be nice if I'm a boss 'cause there's a lot of not nice bosses and I'm a therapist, so I wanna be a nice boss.

In the past when I was less skilled as a leader, I think I let this run me a lot. Like, I have to deliver a message in a nice way, and that really skewed my ability to be authentic. I would not be authentic because I would filter it through this nice lens. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Um, when in reality, being clear is being kind. Like, and I say that to my team all the time, to be clear is to be kind like I didn't coin that, somebody's been saying that for a long time. I don't know who, but like, it just feels like it's a said thing.

Like, so, like the kindest thing I could do is to be clear. And if there's a boundary being set because of a boundary violation, that's not my responsibility. Like, that's something that was someone else's choices.

I'm just simply holding them accountable and if they have a reaction to that, also not on me. My job is to just show up and be clear. But I, I think that for a long time, I had a trouble, I had trouble differentiating, setting a boundary with being like mean and not nice.

Does that make sense or?

Yeah, no, it does make sense. I love that you said this. I have two thoughts. One is fuck. When people get mad that somebody else holds a boundary. Yeah. Like, that infuriates me. That infuriates me.

That person decided to do something shitty. Mm-hmm. But you expect this other person, whether it's me or somebody else to not say anything like, how does that make any sense?

I say that like I don't struggle with that in my own life still. I mean, it's, that's a constant thing. Constant. You doing something shitty is not my responsibility to not say, Hey, that's shitty. You know, that was not the right thing to do based on the boundary, you way crossed it.

And now you're mad? Well, that's your own fucking fault. Like, you crossed the boundary in the first place. You did something and now you get to reap what you sow. Or you have these ramifications for your actions.

Mm-hmm. Natural or logical consequences, whatever language. There's language for this in every domain, you know, every discipline.

I'm thinking of that like, just because somebody is upset about being held accountable doesn't make the person holding them accountable wrong or bad, so, yeah, I was happy to hear that.

But my other, I don't know if maybe niceness is just niceness, but it made me think, well, what, is there something like deeper, it's connected to like, what's the thing that if I'm not nice, dot, dot, dot.

So I'm like curious about that 'cause I have my own stuff, you know, for me it's not niceness, it would be something along the lines of emotional caretaking.

If somebody's not, okay. I need to help fix that. Like, I need to, are you good? I need to be more clear. I need to be more supportive. I need to make sure I double back and flip over all the stones. Did I miss any, you know, what else could it be that I could have done? Or what could we do? Is there something structural?

I start to question like I'm, I'm turning inward and doing like, all sorts of reflection on me and like the structure that's in place. And, and at this point, maybe I do that, but it lasts less. And also I have people around me to help be like, no, Tara, the structure is very sound. This is why we do this thing.

And so there's like shit in place of course to help. Mm-hmm. And probably therapy too. you know? So my point is, it's not niceness to me. And I can say like, oh yeah, no emotional caretaking is I, have a sense for where that comes from.

So I think I'm curious, like, what does niceness equal? If that makes sense.

Yeah, like, how do I know if I'm being nice or like, what does niceness mean? Yes. Like where does that

Yeah, that piece. What does niceness mean?

Yeah. so yeah, I think probably roots for me in this like place where, you know, like I show up here and I talk and it's like, wow, like Nicole's a social person and like she's probably really fun at a dinner party. And, like, I think I am, but I also am like at my core, an extremely blunt person that has little to no filter and I feel like I can see things pretty clearly.

And oftentimes I feel like I have a solution before a problem's even seen This is, these are common traits that like, I feel like, uh, people that run companies have, right?

Yes.

Um, but they're less, I don't wanna say they're less common in women, they're definitely less socially acceptable. That's for damn sure. And so like I feel as though sometimes the world, like, this is my stuff, but like doesn't accept, isn't like naturally accepting of my personality set, you know.

Like there's a lot of like negative feedback around that sometimes for me. And that like, you know, like women are tend to be like naturally very caretaking and I can be a caretaking person, but that's not my strongest skillset. Like problem solving's my strongest skillset, you know, and like seeing things clearly and saying them quickly.

I think that maybe I've had a couple like negative experiences in my life where, you know, I've been labeled like a bitch for lack of a better term. And I'm sure like earlier, like in my life, my execution wasn't oh so polished fair, right?

Yeah, yeah.

But I think that like some of those early times when I was just learning how to be me, I've like just sort of carried some of that undertone of trauma just too long, you know?

And so like that will taint me a little bit. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah. No, that definitely makes sense. Yes.

Um, so, sorry, I'm not sure if I fully answered that, but I think that that's what it's about for me. And like, I've always carried, I've always like lived out sort of a different gender role than what is typical, I feel like.

Like, in the community that I live in and like my husband and I have. And so it's like, I think I am always sort of thinking like that's where like nice comes in, like I think that piece and then over here.

When I'm talking about nice, I'm not just talking about boundaries. I'm talking about when employees will come and say like, I want this a new chair up into more money.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, well, no. Can't do that Uhhuh. And then I'm like, uh, gosh, that's not nice. You know what I mean? Because like, one thing I, I feel like I like love being and is really core to me is I love being very giving.

You know what I mean? And I love to like, I wanna give as much as I can. Yeah. And so when I can't do a give that someone wants, it's really sad for me and I can sometimes distort it and I'm not being nice. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

As you were talking, I was thinking about. I'm gonna reference an engine, but I, yeah. It's funny. I grew up, like my dad works on car. There's not like a memory that I have of there not being a car in the garage that he's working on for somebody, you know?

Yeah.

My brother still is a mechanic and a service writer and whatever. And so I grew up around cars and them constantly being worked on, but I don't know jack shit about cars , but it does make me think about pistons firing.

And how, you know, if you have, let's say six and they're all firing, they fire so quickly, it's almost like you could have a piece of paper on top and write on it. But if you stopped it at any given point that you stop it, the height of the pistons will not match up. Mm-hmm. And at, at some point, like if you stop it here, you know, maybe piston two is higher than four and five, you know, it's sort of like the order and the height are all a little bit different.

Yeah. Yeah. I almost think about that with people and traits and the way that we show up. Mm-hmm. And it's almost like at any given point, this thing might consistently be the thing that shows up highest. Like for whatever reason, it's the piston that's almost always highest when you stop, you know, it like takes up the most space.

But then there's these others that heavily influence the way that we interact and the way that we show up and what we say or how we say it, or what we expect, or you know, whatever.

Because I, as you were talking, I'm like, oh, that's so funny. I mean, I already knew that I liked you, but I feel like we're very simpatico. Like the more I think we talk, the more I'm like, oh Jesus. Yeah. We're like for real simpatico.

Yeah.

Because I am with you on the bluntness. Mm-hmm. And like the, just saying things directly and kind, sure. Like I've been told throughout my life that I'm really approachable and so I'm just gonna say based on what others tell me, that I tend to be approachable and engage in a lot of different styles of conversation and I'm honestly up talking about basically anything without taking it personal in the vast majority of cases.

And so my point is that bluntness thing for me always gets superseded by emotional caretaking. Yeah.

So what is almost always my highest piston is gonna be, Are you okay?

Ah, oh, interesting.

Are you okay? Yeah. I'm still gonna be honest, but like first or are you good?

Yeah. Yeah.

And if somebody is really not good, this honesty is gonna get pushed and I'm gonna say, you know what? I don't know if we should actually do this right now. How about let's just focus on like let's come down. You come down, you know, I wanna make sure that we like we are okay, then we can have this honest conversation next. Yeah.

And usually, of course, once you have a relationship with somebody and established connection and rapport, that tends to happen pretty quick. And you can shift into the honesty.

Yeah. But it's almost like, fuck, for me, that's always the piston, that's the lands first. You know, almost always. I shouldn't say always, but

yeah.

So it's almost like, it feels like a little bit flipped for you, that it's like the honesty piece is first and then also, yeah, this one is important, but this one is the one that I can't stop.

Like it's the thing that has to take place.

Yeah. Yeah. As you were talking I was actually thinking about that, you know, like, attuning to others. Uh, I feel like I naturally pick up on others well, but because my initial inclination is like, here's what needs to be said.

Like I've really had to work with myself over the years on attuning to folks and showing up empathetic and having that timing and almost like having the impulse control within myself to say, you know, the right message at the wrong time is the wrong message.

And really, like,

I love that.

Working with myself on that. Um, and so I think when I get into these seasons where I'm like telling myself I'm not nice, I feel like that's a false message that's just sort of carried with me over time where I've made mistakes and I'm not being fair to myself in that like, that's not who I am.

But it was who I was at some point, but I learned from it. But I still like will sometimes be like, uh, you know what I mean?

Yes. Yeah. I love this. I love this conversation so much. I don't know if it's gonna be helpful for anybody, but I still fucking love it.

It's helpful for us. It's all for me.

Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. That's enough. Okay. That's enough. It can be helpful for us.

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like this, like everybody's got a thing, right? Maybe it's everybody, but it's the one thing that like trails through life where you're like, that's not who I am, you know? Like that's who I struggled. A piece of me that I used to struggle with.

Yep. Yep.

Okay, let's keep doing this. Question number three. Am I letting fear of fallout shape my leadership decisions?

Hope not, but, again, I have done this before.

I don't know if it's helpful to talk about this in like a general sense or like, when I've actually done this.

For me, I think the better way is always How have you, like specifically you, like how has this shown up? We could talk broadly, but I feel like the broad stuff can be extracted from the specifics, to the extent that you're comfortable sharing.

Yeah. What came to my mind was just like, how this has played out in the last couple of years, actually. Um, maybe like in 2022, I started really structuring my practice, in terms of like frameworks, policies and procedures.

Before that, but like, that's when I really got like, really solid with it. And then I quickly moved into like an EOS framework that I, I still do, but I've, like, it's morphed over time. But, uh, all that to say, um, I was assembling a leadership team, people that would be doing things that I would no longer be doing.

Leading people that lead was a new skillset for me. I didn't think it was, 'cause I had done clinical supervision for years, but teaching people how to make micro decisions and then also extrapolate data and information and then make broader decisions. That's not like a one-time training That's like your longstanding mentorship.

So I, when I first assembled my leadership team during the first year, there was movement in and out. And that weighed not, like, not a ton, but like I thought when I assembled the team, I naively thought this is the team.

You know, this is the dream team. We even had like a group text that I named Dream Team. Dream Team.

It's like, live and learn. I mean, I just laughing 'cause it's like, oh, yep, yep, I get it. Yep.

Yeah. That, that era right?

Yeah, yeah. That era, right? .

Yeah. So then I took it really hard the first time I had to like, Ooh, I just don't think that this is a fit for this person.

Like, you know, I'm developing the position for the first time and so I don't fully know what to look for and then the person's doing it for the first time. So like I replaced one of the positions on my leadership team. like the clinical lead was like the hardest one for me, uh, because I had done it for so long, right.

So wait, you mean the clinical lead was the hardest to let go of or the hardest to fill?

It was the hardest for me to figure out how to train, like, selector and train, oddly enough. Yeah. Okay. It would, it would feel like that would be the easiest, but it was the hardest.

So I say clinical lead, clinical director, one in the same, you know. So I thought I had a sound process and then the position didn't work out. And so then I I like re interviewed and like selected somebody new and I probably knew within a month or two intuitively, like this isn't a fit.

And I couldn't tolerate the fallout with the team of pulling that. 'cause it's such an influential position, you know. So I knew within two months and it dragged on for nine months. Right.

Oh yeah. That's rough.

I even said to one of my, like my integrator position was like, that was my biggest mistake of 2024. Like not acting faster. Uh, and so I was really afraid of the fallout, but the fallout of me keeping the position in the way it was, was worse. Yeah. You know.

Yes. There's no way around the fact that when we remove a person from our team, everybody else feels the effect.

Yeah. The, the intensity of the effect, I think is just dependent on the role itself and the relationship, you know what I mean? Like what we can't predict is the intensity of the effect. Of course. Yeah.

But there is an effect. And so, I I'm saying that to say, you know, on one hand there should be time and attention and intention around letting somebody go and like how that might impact the people around you.

But then you run up against this other thing, which is well, okay, and if we are only spending our time trying to control and predict and exactly, precisely get right the way this is gonna impact the team, we're shooting ourselves in the fucking feet. Because then you have the opposite effect where they stay on for too long and it ends up sowing more discord. Yeah.

Even just like a slightly wrong fit person. Yeah. Ends up sowing way more discord and, and it's like, you know, you know, the felt experience of having the right person in the right seat. Mm-hmm. It's hard to, man, this is where it's like, God, it's hard to put into words how much of a difference it makes to truly have a right person in a right seat.

Yeah. Compared to, mostly, right. Yeah. I guess.

It can't be mostly right.

Night and fucking day difference. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And not even, it's not even like having an egregiously wrong person in the seat. Yeah. It's like, just like not exactly it.

And I'm thinking like you had a CD issue. Same for us. We had a clinical director who I was close to for years, you know, and they came over and started working with me and I was like, oh my God, this is incredible. It's gonna be so great. Yeah. Yeah.

And it was not, this person wanted to spend way more time fine tuning presentations or going and presenting, not even just for us, like elsewhere. And they wanted to teach. Yeah. And it's like, none of that is helpful for us moving shit forward. Yeah.

And so like rocks were getting half-assed done. And there was frankly no ownership, no initiative and ownership over what needed to happen to move the entire team forward to our vision. Yeah. And after the fact, then I get info from people around me where they're like, yeah, you know, I went to the clinical director and then I wanted to schedule something and they just asked me to send the question via email.

That gutted me. Like I hate, I think especially 'cause again, if we're thinking of emotional caretaking, you know, it's like, oh my God, if anybody ever says, I need to meet with you. Yeah bitch, I'm gonna call you right now. Like, what do you need? Okay. I get that very rarely at this point, but, you know, 'cause I have the right people in place. Yeah.

Backtracking that person, you know, tells me this after the fact and it's like, holy shit. I didn't even think to say, if you're not getting what you need from this relationship, I also wanna know that. And then the employees are questioning like, maybe I'm asking too much for sure. Like Sure. I guess it could be a question where it's like, no, we are here for you, also. Like leadership isn't just here to move us towards a vision. We are here solely to support you in your functioning. We're beholden to you as much as we are to the business.

But yeah, It's one of those like, this like little micro moment that's like, maybe it's not that big of a deal. No, it is a big fucking deal. Like, that's exactly what I don't want to happen, and it's kind of the right person for the seat. And then all my clinicians are like, well, yeah, it was just okay.

That's like the, the mostly right person in the seat fucking sucks. They might not suck as a person. Yeah. But that impact is gonna suck.

Mm-hmm. For sure. For sure. And yeah, and like, you know, circling back to like some point we were talking about earlier, you were like, you know what happens when a person has maybe it doesn't have the emotional depth or insight to understand their capacity, but you see that it's not working.

And it was really like last year when I went through these couple of circumstances when I was like, okay, I'm making the call. I'm making the call. Right? 'Cause it was, I, I remember feeling like I go home and I would tell my husband, like, I feel like I'm going crazy because I'm coming and I'm saying like, Hey, this is, this is like what I'm seeing and this is what's working and this is what's not.

And I would get back almost like textbook right answers, you know?

Yep.

And then time would go on and I, I wouldn't see any of that come to fruition. And I was like, what's happening? And uh, yeah.

That makes you feel crazy. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And now like. I'm so grateful for those experiences because now I feel like I can easily say like, they don't have the capacity. Or maybe not capacity, but like, um, they don't get it either. Uh, like there's, they don't want it a piece missing. Yeah. But like, or they don't want it yet. There's like, but it doesn't, it's not an automatic like, Hey, just to let you know I have one problem and as a result we're moving you out of the position.

But like if there's like repeated conversations in close proximity, like I, I think about this with my kids all the time. Like if I tell them how to do something and they're not able to do it over and over in close time, uh, they don't have the skills to do it yet. And so I need to go more basic.

Unfortunately for my leadership positions, I can't, so. Yeah, we'll get up or get out. Yeah.

She said one thing that I wanted to, um, expand on. Oh, damn it, Tara. What was it?

Lacking insight in the position. You gotta make the call sometimes.

That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Where I think that is really hard for me to do. Mm-hmm. There's two. Another piston is mm-hmm. feeling understood.

And so I talk about like, turning stones over, like is it everything? Like, have I asked every thing? Have I looked from every angle? What am I missing? Mm-hmm. What am I missing? The reframe, you know? Yeah. And so if I don't feel understood, or if somebody starts to they say they get it, but then they're not performing, I turn in ward first where I'm like, hang on, okay. Did I did I not explain this clearly? Like, wait. Mm-hmm. What am I missing? Oh, I think I said it this way. Well, let me ask them what they understand.

And so I end up like just spinning. Mm-hmm. I sort of end up making these circles over and over and over, like, I'm thinking of like a trail trail in the woods.

So So having, I will say having the right people around me then, like my integrator is way more just cut and dry.

Like Tara, that was in the offer letter. Like we trained for that when they started. That was in the offer letter. No, we've already showed this and my, my DCO my director of clinical ops is also the same.

So it's like I know I don't do that thing well. And again, that's gonna be also a probably second piston that comes up for me mm-hmm consistently is if I'm not understood, it's really hard for me to move because my goal is if we're having a conversation, same as what you said way earlier. You know, it's like most people come to the natural conclusion that this isn't the right fit for them.

I want that thing. I don't wanna fire people. Yeah. And I've had to, which sucks, but a lot of times even my, my clinical director leaving, it was me asking like, I don't know if you want this job.

Mm-hmm. Like, I don't really know that you want what it is that we're doing. And then him saying, yeah, I don't think I want it. Yeah. So it's like, cool. But if he said, no, I want it, then that would've just continued this fucking song and dance of over and over.

Okay, well, I, I think that I said this, but maybe I didn't say it right. That's the thing that I constantly have to be aware of and tend to internally. Yeah. 'cause that that can go on forever.

Yeah. You know what's I would say like, this is a very new place I'm in where I I'm not in that literal exact same spot. And I think it was just like the exposure therapy of last year that did it for me. Yeah.

Yeah.

And last year was a, like, solid year. I feel like it was a very, like, functional year, but like that one position like really had me in internal turmoil for so long. And you know, like my integrator was saying to me, if you have the need to investigate, it's not a right fit.

I love that. Yeah.

Because like, she's like, every time you feel like you need to investigate something, it doesn't, she's not saying like, don't look at the numbers, but like excessively diving in, compiling data. You know what I mean? Like Yes. Getting into the weeds in a ridiculous way.

Every time you feel like you've needed to do that, here's been the conclusion.

Mm-hmm. Like, here's the conclusion and this is where the intuition part comes from like for me. Um, so just why don't you stop doing that because you get into the data and you allow that almost to like skew your decision making.

And so like, if I can juxtapose that to just like a recent conversation with a, with a leadership team member or, and a therapist had two very similar conversations recently. And I wouldn't say that they went perfectly, honestly.

I didn't leave the conversation thinking like they got that. Yeah. Um, you know what I mean? Yes, I do. Yeah. But like, I left the conversation feeling like they heard what I said. They did not like it. They stated that they wanted time to think about it, and they brought another solution that I don't totally think will be the best solution, but I can see where they might think that is based on where they are in their journey.

And so that's, there's a line forward there. You know what I mean?

Yes.

Like I do, I think they're still lacking insight in this position. Yeah. But like just a, just like a client that doesn't have insight yet, you can't dose it to 'em before they're ready. People have to like, have a lived experience. And so, you know, like I have to see like a continuous forward and I feel like looking at it like that is helpful for me.

Yeah. Almost like seeing the person in context.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Okay. I remember being in quantitative analysis. We had to take one and two for my doc program. And so yeah, the instructor , his name was Cody Ding. He was so awesome.

Mm-hmm. But I remember him in the very beginning of the class saying something like, I'm all the way over here. Mm-hmm. And you all are all the way over here. Mm-hmm. I don't even know what it's like to be there anymore. Yeah.

But I think that with something like leadership or, or even like employees, training folks and whatnot, it's person in context. I spend so much time, not even, um, on purpose, but just I'm constantly referencing the business or thinking or grappling with something, or there's something brewing in the back of my mind, you know . I think people have had much less time and exposure to thinking about the thing than I have.

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah,

That's it. Like if you, if this is the problem and you don't even really know it was a problem, I'm telling you right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You come up with a solution, you think about it, try it out.

Mm-hmm. I might know this probably isn't gonna work, but what the fuck ever, it doesn't hurt anything to give it a go. And it's of their own, like their, their decision or their solution, which yeah, for me is like, ownership is one of our values. Own your shit. And so I think, yeah. Cool.

You try something out and see if it goes well, even if I know it's not going to, if there's no harm in this attempt and it's moving you in the direction of you're learning why this might not work, or you're learning that this other thing is more effective for this reason, boom.

What more can I ask for? I can't ask you to be where I am, that's not fair. Mm-hmm. And that's not going to happen. But I can ask you to do the thing that you're doing, which is actively grapple and think about a problem and come up with a solution.

Yeah. That's gonna be based on where you're standing right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm, as you were talking, I was just thinking like, um, what freed me from some of these things. And I'm sure that there'll be a point where like, I struggle through it again, like just another iteration of leadership.

Um, but my mentor was like, you should start making frameworks for how you're making decisions. Yeah. Um, and that was a game changer for me. 'cause like a framework isn't a, this is how you make the decision. It's not a black and white thing. It's a process for how you think about something.

Yes.

Um, and so then that made things really clear because another thing with I think is as an owner, as your company grows more and more, some people never see the owner. Like, I'm a pretty involved owner. And there's, there's employees I don't see, or they don't know how my decision making works, they certainly don't know me on a deep personal level, you know what I mean?

So like, when I just swoop in and make a decision, that can be a really bad look, particularly at the last time they saw me was I was in workout clothes and I was moving a couch and maybe having a bad day, and I looked a little eccentric.

Like, I can just look like a, a wackadoodle that like's coming in and making these erratic like boom decisions. Yeah. And that's not really what I'm going for. You know, like, so like, um, I made this framework where it's like three, like, it was like a continuum and on one end. Uh, so like the first level, level is there's no impact if the person just makes the decision.

Maybe it's inefficient, maybe I disagree with it, but it's, it's, frankly, it's stylistic. So let it go. I don't need to have any input here. The second is there may be impact, or it may be pretty inefficient. There may be a much more efficient way to do it, and I disagree with the approach. I feel like you maybe have a better approach, but it's not high stakes, but long term it could be.

And so, why don't we do it your way? But we're gonna debrief after, right? We're gonna talk about it like what worked, what didn't. And then the final is there is it's high risk. There could be immediate consequence to the business. And in that instance, I am going to step in and I'm gonna make the call and we're gonna talk about it.

And so like, I had to decide this, but then I also had to tell the team

Yes. Yeah,

because like, because again, like if I know, but if I'm not telling them, remember this is this, this thing we talked about. But remember last, the last few months, we live and live in here. So like this is just that one time. You have autonomy.

Um, first of all, I fucking love that. And again, it's simpatico because my brain constantly is thinking in frameworks.

Yeah, yeah.

Constantly thinking like, where am I conceptually grounded? Okay, but why are we doing this one thing? Mm-hmm.

When we rolled out EOS to the entire team, we had already been doing it as a leadership team and even a little bit on the operations side. Yeah. For a solid year and a half. And what I've realized is we met for a quarterly, it was, um, it was actually, no, it was a two day annual, it was a December that we met.

Yeah.

And we met for this quarterly and then there were some more like changes. I dunno if it was like accountability chart changes or I don't remember even exactly what. mm-hmm. Feeling like, fuck. I don't think that I wanna tell the team, and dawned on me, like, what is it?

Why I'm, I'm very upfront, like I don't, yeah. There's not really much that's hidden. The only thing I'm not comfortable sharing is like detailed finances, but in terms of like decisions, what we're doing, why, where we're going, et cetera. We're basically open books, you know?

Mm-hmm. But before that, we hadn't rolled out EOS and so I, I don't know when it dawned on me, but I was like, oh my God, we have to have a meeting.

I have to roll this out to them to explain to them what we're doing. Why we're doing it, how it shows up for them, et cetera. Mm-hmm. And so I mandated a full day, eight hour EOS meeting.

Everybody had to be there. And I said, oh, wow. Must be here. Like this is negotiable. Solid. Yeah. Like we're gonna, I'm booking a hotel office or whatever, just to be able to have everyone there.

We're gonna cater lunch, I'm gonna do a presentation. It is non-negotiable. You must be there. And so that was incredible to do.

Yeah.

Because then in real time, like of course we talk about everything. I mean, it was a long presentation, but also really like engaged in questions and whatnot. Yeah. And I told them at the outset, start jotting down as you're listening, just jot down issues.

Anything you're feeling, what you're noticing, what you're thinking, what you've seen in the business, et cetera. Mm-hmm. And at the end, or like at some point, you know, we compiled all the issues.

And we've picked our top three. And in real time we, we worked through issues where it was like, mm-hmm.

Okay, we're gonna do this collectively. And then it was, it was like being able to say to them every week, this is what we do. Yeah. So we come to you and we say, Hey, this is a decision that we're making. You all exactly know, this is the process we're going through. Mm-hmm. We are not just willy-nilly deciding shit.

Yeah. I,

I could easily do that, but I'm not allowed at this point because of the infrastructure that we have in place.

Yeah.

If we wanna do something big, it lives here and we've revisit it on a quarterly basis. Yeah. All of our rocks are in alignment with our vision, which is this. Mm-hmm. All our values or what we assess, you know, it's like being able to really bring to life

Yeah.

How we make decisions. And you're right, because if they see me or somebody else swoop in and say like, boop, that's being changed.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which

feels like, what the fuck, man? Like when was this an issue?

Yeah.

But now we have status updates. We're constantly communicating about shit that's going on and what might change and like big things that might change, but also even little things and how to prep for it.

And even that, the impact on people. Like we're thinking about this, you know, what's the impact on people and what's it gonna take to implement and et cetera.

So I think, I just was struck by oh yeah. Being able to roll out that EOS meeting with the entire team and yeah. Walk through with them, this is how and why, this is what we do, this is how we show up, this is why we do it.

Mm-hmm.

Now, you know, like none of this is, none of this is willy-nilly. It's all very much on purpose. Yeah. That was super helpful. And for me, a good sign that it was working. I had someone resign within the next month.

Mm. Yep.

This is not what I wanna do. Yep. I knew she was gonna resign. I was like, she's not here for this. Like, she wants to do her own thing. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's empowering to let an employee self-select out 'cause they leave with a better view of the company.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's cool.

Okay, so we are going to, just because of time, we're gonna move on to the scenario.

So I will read a scenario and basically, I don't know, we'll see where it goes. Okay. Okay. You have a high performing clinician. Clients love them. Mm-hmm. They're booked solid. But do, do, do, they're bypassing team protocols. Mm-hmm. They're dismissive in team meetings.

Mm-hmm. And they're undermining admin systems. Mm-hmm. You delay the conversation because you really don't want them to walk. Mm-hmm. Especially with their client caseload.

Mm-hmm. Drafted emails. You've deleted them, you've rehearsed what to say and you haven't yet. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Boom. What do you do? What would you do?

So if you're working with this person Yeah. What would you do? And maybe also personally, like, uh, have you done this? Have you done Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So admin policies, bypassing

and bypassing team protocols, dismissive in team meetings, and undermining admin systems.

Yeah. So like what would the conversation look like?

Yeah. What would you do? Yeah. What would the conversation look like?

Yeah. So I would let them go. Um, but, well, I shouldn't say I would let them go because that's, uh, that's like me assuming the conclusion.

So I'll tell you the conversation of what it would be. If it depends on where they were in the, in the process, like if I, if they, if we had had a coaching conversation or written warning, it would be a different outcome than if it was the first time I'm, I was addressing it. So if it was,

Yeah, let's assume, the first time.

Okay. First time I'm addressing it. Yeah. Uhhuh. Okay. So if it's the first time I'm addressing it, I would probably say something like, you know, I wanted to meet with you to talk about some things that I'm noticing.

Like first off, like, you're doing a killer job with your caseload. We get such good feedback from you, from the clients. You're like, really well sought, sought after in intake. Like people wanna keep scheduling. And I love that, like I love that area of genius you have.

But we have some other things that are coming up that are causing a struggle with team functioning. So , policies and procedures aren't being followed. Administrative things aren't being followed up on, and I. I sort of noticed and tell me if I'm seeing this right.

In meetings when things are brought up or things are addressed, and again, I might have this wrong, but, like there's like a body language or almost a tone that it feels as though you are not attuned or you're not in alignment, or maybe you flat out disagree with the information being presented and as a result, sometimes it comes off from my vantage point as dismissive.

Can you talk me through those things? I know I threw a lot at you, but can you talk me through that and like, what's up? I, I think that's how I would start it.

Yeah. That's fantastic.

So I would just, I, I'm pointing out observations and I am acting, I'm not acting, I'm being curious. And I would be looking for their insight on it.

And I would be looking for any, like, ownership. If there was some, I would say I, great insight. I would like praise that, and then we would go on to, okay, here are the things I need to change. If there was none, I would tell them what I needed to change.

And we, for like, in a coaching conversation, I would say, you know, with these policies and procedures, I need them followed by X. And then when you're with other team members or in meetings, I really want to see your engagement be a little different. And if you disagree, I love that, bring it up.

But like, we can't have your body language and your facial expressions be so out of alignment with silence because the communication just stops there. So these are the things like, I'd like to like see. That's how I would like proceed.

Yeah. I love this.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah. You what? Sorry?

Is how you would do it too, like

Yeah. Yeah. It would be the same. It would be, um. Clinically, you're awesome. Yeah. Like obviously, you know, everybody stays booked with you. You are retaining your clients, you have super low churn rate, you're hitting your numbers, et cetera. Yeah.

I probably would be more broad, I would say, but I, I get the sense that something doesn't feel right. Like I get the sense that maybe there's some dissatisfaction or something you don't like about being here.

Mm-hmm. And I just wanna explore this conversation. I don't know, and I could be wrong, but I wanna hear from you, like, is there something, I don't know, how's it going? How's it going with you? Yeah.

And I would probably start there and see where they went, and then if they said, yeah, I just, man, I, I like our team. I, you know, I like being here. I like the clinical work. I just, I just don't agree with some of the way things are ran. Hmm.

I probably would invite, like, okay, tell me more about this. Yeah. And then I might even just say, I'm in a little bit of a pickle because mm-hmm. I hear what you're saying and I understand where you're coming from. Like, If I was in your shoes, I might even feel similarly.

And my vantage point is so different. My view of how things are run. Yeah. Everything that's in place is intentionally designed and so I could give you context as to why we do it this way, and I'm happy to do that.

Mm-hmm. But the reality is that you still might not want to, but I still need you to. Yeah. And so do you want context or is it just nice to be able to share that you don't like something? Yeah. Knowing that you're still gonna have to do it. Yeah.

And that it might be something like that. You know, I always like when people, or like in meetings, I might even then, if they didn't bring up dismissiveness in meetings, I would say, hang on, tell me what I like, what are you thinking about meetings?

How are meetings going for you? Yeah, I do like, I'll tend to ask first. Yeah. Because I, I don't wanna influence the conversation in the exact like direction that I want. Mm-hmm. I want them to start walking there first. And the reality is like almost everybody voices the thing that you already are want to say.

They're gonna bring it up if it's a safe enough place and they are being honest and you're asking them like, I notice something's wrong. Yeah. Tell me like, is something wrong? How do you feel? What's going on? What do you think about here? Blah, blah, blah. You know? Yeah. They're probably gonna start to lay out some crumbs in the direction that I'm already wanting to go.

Yeah. So my preference is they start and then I tag along because I think in my experience, they're way more receptive to what I have to say because I'm basically validating what it is that they just said. Mm-hmm. I'm not like presenting it as new, you know?

Yeah. I love that.

But I think the general approach is gonna be like. The essence of what we're doing is the same. Like I'm just gonna bring up something that I notice and I wanna figure out what the problem is, and then we're gonna talk through, okay, you hate this thing and I can understand that, but it's also required, so I need to know what it is that you wanna do.

Yeah. If you, if you wanna be here, like this is part of it, you don't have to love it, but you also, like, I can't have dismissiveness or what could be perceived as dismissiveness or you bypassing things because that impacts a bunch of other people around you who then have to go back and clean up your mess.

Yeah, for sure.

And so I'm, you know, I don't fucking want that. We actually had that with the CD where he was like, I just wanna exist in a silo. And I was like, but you don't. And so when you act like that, guess who cleans everything up? All of these people around you now are going back and cleaning your mess up, you know?

Yeah. So, yeah, probably a similar-ish approach. But I'm gonna give more space at the beginning, which also is probably a function of the emotional caretaking. I want them to step into the conversation willingly, and I wanna be there with them when they do it, and then I'm gonna tag along with them.

Yeah, I love that. I always love hearing your approach 'cause it's so person forward, which again isn't my, like, natural strength. And so I love that.

That's funny to me also because you, I don't know if it's because I like directness. I just, I just wanna talk like, let's just fucking talk, come on, you know?

So your style also comes across as it is nice. Like it's kind. Yeah, it's honest and it's kind. And so I sort of feel funny 'cause I never use the word nice is not like a word that's common in my vocabulary, you know? But like kindness. Yeah.

You're being honest. You're being clear. You're being kind. Mm-hmm. You're figuring out how do we solve this in a collaborative way. Mm-hmm. Like, what the fuck else do you want out of somebody? Like would you rather be chastised? You know, would you rather be like lied to? No and no, I don't wanna be chastised or lied to. I want someone to be straight up with me and I want it to be done nicely.

Yeah. Sorry. For sure. With kindness, of course. I'm like, I don't use nice but nicely. Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. .

Okay. I do have a really good example of this. I don't know if you want me to share it real quick.

Do it. Yeah, please. Yeah. Yep.

Okay. So, um, we're salary unlimited PTO, and um, we hire a lot of brand new graduates out of a school that maybe this is their first job, like literally ever.

Right? Yeah. A lot, almost all of them. They've never had one more than one or two jobs. So a lot of, lot of folks in their mid twenties. So you know, they have to do a quota hour and, um,

Which, hang on, clarify what that is for me. I don't know what a quota hour is.

A quota they have to do. Uh, they have an annual amount of sessions they have to do per year.

Yes. Cool. Thank you.

In the agreement. And they can like, you know, flex things with that. And so we had a moment where it wasn't just one therapist, but like there was almost like a subculture that was taking root. And a therapist in clinical supervision had said out loud, I feel like this unlimited PTO thing is a lie.

And the supervisor handled it beautifully and was like, tell me more and whatnot. And then like, it had come up again and other people, the body language was similar. And so I was like, oh, you know, like I'm gonna, I'd like to pop in and like have a conversation. Right? Yeah. So I came in and, and you know, like, um, they had shared that intimately.

And so initially I could see that nobody wants to, nobody wanted to come forward and be like. Yeah, and I, and I said, Hey, the worst thing you can do in this moment is not tell me exactly how you feel, because I might not have a solution for you right now. I might have not have a solution for you at all, but I'm certainly not gonna have a solution for you if I don't know the exact nature of the problem.

And like what came from it is they were like, you know, basically they're so new to the field that they didn't understand the natural ebbs and flows of clients coming in and out. And so they would have a lot of anxiety about meeting their hours and they didn't feel like they could take time off 'cause they were afraid of like, what if I have cancels in the future.

When the infrastructure is really well built to protect them from that. But just because of their newness to the field, they couldn't see that. And so we didn't change the structure off of that, but it was extremely helpful for me because I was like, I need to add more things in my onboarding to prep them.

Yeah.

I, and I need to dose them with this throughout. So thank you for that feedback. Yes. You know, um, and it's even evolved into a conversation of, now we're thinking about like, because we've gotten so much feedback on it, like, this is fine, but, and I, I'm like, man, I think I'm just gonna have the licensed people maybe in years to come do this.

And I'm gonna maybe switch up the structure of it that's, uh, just slightly more structured where they have freedom. But structured enough to where I just don't want someone to feel a dilemma to take PTO that I know they can afford to take off. Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean? But I would've never had that had we not had a, this like, little bit of a messy conversation. Yeah. Where somebody's essentially, like, calling the policies that I created a lie, which I like, I took no offense to, but like, had I been offended in that moment, it would've all, you know, like I had to just really be curious.

Um, so I was really thankful for that, that they felt safe enough to just like, sort of say those things to me. Um, but yeah.

I think this is a fantastic example. Mm. Because i, I can't help but wonder what percentage of people would've done the thing that you just said not to do, which is be offended. Oh, sure.

No. How What do you mean? It's a lie? Like, what do you, yeah, tell me what you're talking about. But then they're only asking, tell me what you're talking about so they can double down on why it's not a lie.

Why it's not a lie, or just getting too much on the details of it. Yes, yes.

Yeah. They get stuck in this like, well, no, it's not a lie. You, of course you can take unlimited PTO and then there's no like diving into, hang on, hang on. What do you mean it's a lie? Like, what does that mean? Tell me, I don't understand. Like, what, what is happening that you are saying this, that this is coming out of your mouth? Like, tell me more about this. I want to understand.

Mm-hmm. Exactly what you said. I can't solve anything if I don't even know what the problem is. And for me, this also is like, yeah, IDS like mm-hmm. Just, you know, we need to identify the actual root cause of the issue. Yeah.

And the reality is like, for new therapists in particular, you know, they're just so they're so fresh and so green that they don't know the ebbs and flows. They don't know the seasons. They don't know how things look over the course of a year or two, they mm-hmm don't know their average attendance rate or cancel.

They don't know what their retention is. There's so much that's unknown. Yeah. That then it's scary. Like more unlimited something is actually scary instead of relieving.

But you wouldn't have known any of that had you not asked, you know? Yeah. Said like, hang on, tell me what, tell me more about this. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. I love that I.

Yeah, one of the items in the, I think in the leadership manifesto that I created, one of the things is that I co-created with chat.

Mm-hmm. One of the things is, um, seek clarity before resolution or nuance before resolution. Yeah. Like, don't, do not solve a problem unless you know everything about it that you can.

Yeah. And if you're offended about something, then also don't solve it. And, uh, defensiveness is not my go-to horseman, so it takes, I don't get very defensive, you know?

Mm-hmm. So it's easy to be like, yeah, well, don't get defensive, just ask. But for some people they get defensive and it's like, yeah. I think your job as a leader, same as like as a parent, you know? Yeah. Your job is, you have to set your own shit aside. Mm-hmm. It's not really sure, like, you're here and it's about you, and this is reflective of you, but it's also not all about you.

And these people are heavily invested in, in what you're building, and they're building it with you, and you couldn't build it without them. And so, mm-hmm. You also should be invested in them. And yeah, I love that example and how you handled it and I would've absolutely handled it very similarly.

Hmm. Cool. Thank you. That's so validating.

Yeah. Alright, I think that's it. Is there anything else you wanna share, you wanna talk about that feels important or relevant or,

This was fun.

This was fun.

Okay. Right. Thank you. I really appreciate you doing this with me.

Yeah. Or anybody who's wrapping this up with us again, I'm gonna ask if you love these episodes and any of the others, make sure you subscribe and review the podcast because when you review it, it hits more people who need to hear messages.

So I appreciate your time, you Nicole, and also you, the listener, and I will see you all next time. Thanks. Bye.

Bye.