Culture Focused Practice

 Hey, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper here and you are listening to the Culture Focus Practice podcast. Thank you for being here with me. I love that you are here. So I'm fucking pumped about today's episode. That's all I'm gonna say.

Here is a hot take, Tara's hot take. It's not your scripts that are failing. It's your presence. Hear me out. There is no template that can save you from the consequence of unresolved fear or resentment or any sort of leadership drift.

So if you have been obsessing over, okay, well, how exactly, what's this perfect right way to say this hard thing? Instead of focusing on why you're avoiding it in the first place, just consider this your wake up call.

Consider this your episode. I am doing this from the bottom of my heart for you, my friend, for you. The goal is to cut through the fluff, that lovely bullshit, and get real about the internal work that makes hard conversations land and culture stay strong. And I would say even evolve and grow and get healthier as it happens, so.

If you are nodding along or squirming in your seat, 'cause you know this is gonna hit home for you. I see you. I see you. Can you please hit subscribe before we start? So, in doing so, especially if this resonates, then you're just helping other people who it will likely also resonate for find this podcast a little bit easier.

Additionally, then you get updated when any episodes drop and you can binge listen with a little more ease and so can make your life easier. Let's talk agenda real quick.

There's just a few items on here. Four to be exact. Number one, we've got script obsessions. When I tell you I'm geeked about this episode, I am fucking here for it.

Number two agenda item, what matters in tough conversations? Number three, common script failures. And last, number four prep that works without the overkill.

All right, we're gonna basically get straight into it.

Agenda item number one, the script obsession. If you are somebody who spends a lot of time thinking about the exact thing that you're going to say, my husband does this for the record, he does almost like 4D chess in his brain. You know, if this, then this, but if this, then this, if this, then this, and then wham, you know, whatever the final outcome is.

Think about what you're really doing. You are looking for control. Because you feel afraid. You feel uncomfortable, you feel concerned, you feel worried, whatever unpleasant feeling you wanna put there is fine. But it's a way of trying to feel a sense of control over a conversation that you know is gonna be hard to have.

You know, it's not gonna feel good. You might have some anxiety around having it. All of those things are normal. And let's normalize the feelings. Anxiety, fear, nervousness, tension unsure if it's gonna go well. You don't know if it's gonna end well. Concern, weariness of the other person. Maybe there's someone who explodes near somebody who shuts down.

All of those things. I think that's totally normal. I think it would make sense that you would wanna feel control in the face of this unpleasant feeling. It still holds true that obsessing over the script and focusing heavily on control is not gonna make that feeling go away, and so don't get it twisted.

This focus on control of the conversation and the script will not get rid of that anxiety or tension. It will not. It might fake get rid of it. You might feel pseudo relief. It's gonna pop straight back up as soon as that conversation starts to take place, or as soon as you know the conversation is coming.

Another reason why you might be engaging in script obsession is that you think the right words are gonna prevent rupture. They're gonna prevent unpleasant feelings from the recipient. They won't. I mean, you could say things as perfectly as possible, and the reality is that people get to feel how they feel.

You can't control how they feel. If something is outta the blue or they thought they were doing it well and they find out that they're not, or they are being reprimanded over numbers, or if they're coming on a call for some sort of formal disciplinary meeting, they're gonna have feelings about it.

You saying things in even like literally the ideal way, the best way possible, that you ran it through every person you know, and they all say, wow, that's beautiful, does not negate the fact that the person you're talking to will likely have feelings, especially if it's a hard conversation, period. They're gonna have feelings about it.

So I'm gonna keep going, then we're gonna talk about what to do with this later on in the episode.

A third reason that you might be script obsessed is that you believe that language can be used as armor. You could think of it as armor. You could think of it as a giant wall or shield. Fuck, you could think about it like the Wizard of Oz being the man behind the curtain, you know?

But the reality is that in doing this, if we use language as armor, just for simplicity's sake, we are foregoing connection with the person in front of us. And so think about someone talking to you in legalese. That sucks. It's dry, it's boring. It's like, am I talking to a person?

Or when you get on a a call, when you make a call to some giant company and they have the script that the person has to run through, the customer service rep has to talk, and you know, they're just reading this fucking paragraph in front of them and it makes me wanna pull my hair out. I hate it so much. I hate being on the receiving end of that.

The people around you likely also hate it. Not only does it feel cold, but I mean it, just disconnects them from you entirely. And if you're having a hard conversation, you know, if you listen to last episode at all, this is a callback a little bit, but we also need to focus on repair in that conversation.

So my point is, the way that script obsession can show up is really trying to have as much control as possible to offset the discomfort, the fear, the tension, et cetera, that you're feeling. Believing that the right words are gonna prevent rupture from happening. They won't. Or attempting to use language as armor instead of just relying on connection.

That's for my script obsessed folks.

So here's what actually matters in hard conversations. This is why I love this episode.

I love it. Here's what actually matters. One, your energy, posture and tone of voice. So, you know, we talk about communication. There's verbal and nonverbal. Weirdly enough, I would consider this nonverbal, even though tone, it sort of is verbal, but it's not the, the content that you're saying. So it's not the specific thing that you're saying.

It's the way that you present it in terms of how you're saying it, and your physical self while you're saying it. So if I am, you know, finger straightforward, wagging it up and down at somebody while I'm telling them that I'm, I need something different out of them, and my tone of voice is real short and to the point and curt, it's gonna feel much different than if I say, Hey, you know, I, I think I actually need something a little bit different than what I've been seeing from you.

One is way more collaborative and ideally inviting. The other is way more authoritarian, which I am not. I'm Well, fuck. That'd be awful, honestly, to try to be authoritarian.

My point remains the same that the way you say something, again, your energy while you are saying it, your posture while you are saying it, and your tone of voice as you are sharing something with somebody else, that is what matters. Those are, those are three things that matter in a tough conversation.

What also matters is the congruence between your words and your emotion.

So if you are, let's just say, really hurt by something that somebody did, maybe you, you heard something that they said about you and it man, like it sort of felt like a character assault, let's say, or it was a, a really clear misunderstanding of your intentions.

If you're really hurt, but you're telling somebody that it's totally okay, it's totally okay that you said this. You know, it's, it's definitely fine. I just, I, I hope next time you can come to me.

That's not congruence. You might hope that they come to you, but the reality is that you're also hurt by something. And so I think there's something to be said for, damn, it hurt my feelings that you thought this about me. That really hurt my feelings. My preference is that you would come to me so we could have a conversation. And if you ever are unsure why I am doing something, I one a hundred percent wanna clarify. It's not my MO to ever do something and not elaborate on why.

And so that's like a small example, but something that would say, be honest. Be honest with people around you, about what's going on for you. I will not, ooh, I shouldn't say will not, but it's rare that I will spout something off in the throes of anger.

I don't get angry, like it doesn't last very long for me. It just takes a lot of energy to. Stay angry. I don't hold grudges. I just, I can't, I don't have it in me. So if I'm angry about something, I know I gotta give this a minute and then I'll let it go.

But I also know if I feel insulted about something, like somebody says something and I'm like, oh my God, I feel insulted, which also takes a lot, that is a very specific feeling and it doesn't happen often.

I have to address that directly with a person. 'cause insulted is not angry and I might say. I was a little bit blown away by what I heard you say, and it takes a lot for me to get here, but I, I kind of felt insulted, you know, hearing you say that had me thinking this. So I just wanna check in with you on what's actually going on or how you really feel, or whatever it might be.

So, a hard conversation isn't always gonna be you clarifying for. Somebody what they're doing wrong. It could be that something was spoken or said culture wise and it directly impacts you and now you have feelings about it.

That's what I'm kind of leaning into with these examples. But it could also be that it's externally focused in stead where somebody is doing something and let's say it's happened for the third time. And you are frustrated, you know, rightfully so. You're a little, maybe exasperated like, oh my gosh, here we go again.

You might say that at the next meeting. You might say, Hey, I'm, I'm getting a little bit frustrated that we are continuing to meet about the same thing, so I really need to understand where is this falling through the cracks? What about this isn't clear? I thought we had covered it clearly. I thought my expectations were clear. I need you to level with me what's going on.

And so it's not me coming at somebody angrily, it's me being honest about what's happening. I am frustrated. I'm gonna say that I'm frustrated, but I'm also seeking to understand what's going wrong, because I want to fix it. I'm gonna seek to solve this with this other person.

So congruence between words and emotion really matters in a tough conversation.

Another thing that matters in a tough conversation is holding tension. Motherfucker. I love this so much. I don't have enough words to emphasize how much I love this.

This is my favorite thing about leadership, for the record. If I think anything about leadership, it is that it is the porous membrane of this living organism that is your practice. Leadership holds everything. So when something comes up with somebody, let's say they have a strong reaction to whatever, it's that you're saying, hold the space.

What I don't allow for is character assassination or contempt. So I'm not gonna hold space with someone calling me an asshole bitch. Cool, if you think that, that's fine, but also, no, that behavior is totally inappropriate.

I will hold space for someone saying they are frustrated. They are feeling resentful, they are sad, they are confused. They are just so disheartened, that they feel hopeless. Boom, I got you. I got this. We're gonna hold space.

I'm not gonna solve it right away. I'm gonna give that a little bit of space and I'm gonna let it ride. I'm gonna let them be able to talk about it. Because what I know about feelings and I love feelings, is that as we can talk about them, that very nature helps people physiologically come down.

And by that I mean if we think about feelings as just physiological responses, you know, we all have them and the more heightened they are, we can't like push them aside and get into sort of for forebrain thoughts, so to speak. We can't really get into executive functioning if we're in a really heightened emotional feeling, state, limbic system state.

So I'm gonna give people space and by holding that space, they will start to come down. By me not getting wrapped up with them. And by me saying. Yeah, I, I, I get it. I, as much as I can, I get it. I would absolutely feel frustrated if I was in your shoes, a thousand percent. I would absolutely feel disheartened.

I would feel hopeless. I would feel whatever. And I am gonna try to empathize with them because empathy also is gonna be something that helps them physiologically come down.

And once we can exhale from that, we're gonna continue the conversation. So I'm not gonna bypass feelings to try to get to, let's resolve this right away, that's gonna help you feel better. No, we're gonna sit in this space to the extent that you want to, you know, if they're like, I just, I'm good. I just wanna get through how do we stop this from happening again? Then I'm gonna follow that lead. But if they're not able to continue the conversation, 'cause they're in a heightened state, I'm gonna hold that space with them, help them come down, and then we're gonna continue the conversation.

What actually matters is holding that tension. Don't try to resolve it right away.

The last thing with regard to what actually matters in tough conversations, which is also slightly related to holding tension, but a a little bit unique, is tolerating silence and discomfort.

And so, again, part of holding tension is being able to tolerate discomfort, but the silence piece is a little bit unique, and so it might be where you say something, you push it back to the other person. It's time for them to share. You're asking, come on. I really need you to level with me on this. Tell me what is going on. And now it's their turn to talk.

And you have to give them the opportunity to share what might be going on with them. They might eventually say, Tara, I don't know. I, I don't have any idea. I just keep dropping the ball, or I just keep fucking this up, or whatever. They might say, I can't talk about this.

And then from there, you know, you might have a different discussion where you say, okay, we can't let this conversation end. We can right now, we can, we can take a break. We have to come back. So what I want you to do in the meantime. I want you to process on your own and try to figure out what's going on. Let's meet again in two days, and if it's easiest, shoot me an email in advance with some of your key takeaways from your own processing, or just come prepared to talk and we'll meet again in two days.

Boom. You could do something like that if you needed to. So it might be that the silence ends up with them literally not knowing. And so you, you know, you push out the meeting a little bit with a directive for them to come prepared next time. Or you know, when they have that silence, they do come up with something and then the conversation goes from there.

Those are things that matter in conversation. It's not the specific exact thing that you say. It's not the script, it's how you show up with this person who is right in front of you, in the middle of a hard conversation, ideally somebody that you care about, you know, somebody that you wish well for, and that you want to have a good experience at your practice.

Okay, let's move on. Agenda item number three, common script failures. I also love this one is that it sounds nice, but it feels condescending.

It's funny, I said earlier something about feeling insulted how it doesn't happen very often for me. This is when it will happen for me. I feel insulted when something reads nice, but it feels condescending. Something about this is like, hmm, there's something left unsaid. For me, that's what's happening. There's something left unsaid.

And so if you are not being honest and you're, you're saying things diplomatically and nicely. I think without the honesty, it has the risk of coming across as condescending. That's my own specific thought process. I couldn't point to any research to say, this is why, you know, listen to me.

But what I will say is that in my experience, that's usually what it is that, you know, contempt, condescension, et cetera, all those things are feelings and needs going left unsaid. And so if you are writing something or if you're saying something and you're not taking ownership of, this is how I feel, this is what I need, there's a risk that it comes across as condescending.

Another common script failure is that it's technically spot on, but it, there's no emotionality. It's just totally cold. Can we think about like the legalese sort of having that writing or having something as armor, using language as armor? That is the same thing here that it's gonna fail when you are you're getting the letter of the law, but there's nothing behind it.

There's nothing warm. There's no soft landing for somebody. If the conversation is hard, period, I don't need to make it harder for somebody by being cold and aloof. I wanna make it so that there's the highest likelihood that it's going to be received, and to do that, then I need to be warm with a person.

I can say a hard thing and still be warm with a person. They can go hand in hand very nicely. So if you're doing something that's technically accurate, but emotionally vacant, that is a common script failure that I would urge you to reconsider.

A third common script failure is that it feels too corporate or honestly, emotionally dishonest.

And so this isn't necessarily the emotionally vacant piece, but this is like you know, you plug something into chat GPT to come up with, write this for me and it's gonna write something for you, but it's gonna feel like it's coming from the PR person at a major corporation. Fine, sure this is spot on. But also that's not, that's not me. Like this isn't actually how I would talk about any of these things.

So that's just something else to keep in mind, especially if you do use. Some sort of ai, whether it's chat GBT or something else to help you formulate your points or your thoughts or maybe your talking points with somebody. Just be really mindful, is this actually accurate for how you feel and what you're trying to say in the way that you would say it?

Those are common script failures and we are going to segue to our fourth agenda item, which is prep that works without the overkill, without the over-engineering.

Here's just a couple things. First. Just know what your core point of concern is. What is your main fucking point? That's it. If there's nothing that can ground you in any of this, you need to know what is the concern, what is the problem that you are seeking to solve, period.

Everything else can be an offshoot from that, but you have to have identified this one thing because over and over you can at least keep coming back to that. So that's one thing that I would say needs to work with regard to prep.

Another prep item that works is anchoring in your values or your company culture. I sort of use those interchangeably. Maybe I shouldn't 'cause they're a little bit different, but I think for most people, if you're living out values, you're gonna have a strong company culture. If you are actively like hiring, firing, living them out, et cetera, you're gonna have a strong company culture.

So, anchor what you are doing in your values. And so if you have a core concern and then you're also anchored in your values or your company culture, you are standing very firm. That's very solid ground.

Not only do I know what I'm trying to say, but also I am grounded in culture, which makes up our entire group. That's confident and people and human-focused approach to having a hard conversation that has nothing to do with, legalese or corporate-ese or any fucking jargon. It's not cold in aloof. It's not using language as a shield. It's, here's my concern. Here's who we are. Boom. So beautiful, so clean.

Two more things with regard to prep that works without the overkill. One is asking yourself, what's the outcome that I'm hoping for? So, of course you wanna seek to solve the problem, duh, you know? But what else?

What is the other outcome that you're hoping for? Are you wanting clarity from the other person? Are you seeking alignment with them or them with the practice? Are you wanting repair? Do you know things have been going south with this person and you really wanna shift and get back into repair mode with them?

Comfort is not an answer here. You saying, well, I want it to be easy, not an answer. What outcome are you hoping for? Not only, again, seeking to solve the problem, of course. Bigger than that. Is it clarity? Is it alignment? Is it repair? Is it vulnerability? Is it modeling transparency? What is it? What's the thing that you're after, the other thing that you're after?

And then the last thing that you could adopt is building in a regulation strategy. So of course you want to, I mean, have some sense for what you're going to say and how you might say it, but I would say more importantly is to also tune into yourself to ensure that you are doing things that will help you stay regulated.

If you are the person that has to hold space, and you are because you're leadership, so you have to hold that tension, hold the feeling space, hold the discomfort, if there is some from the other party and you are the person that has to stay anchored in what's the core concern? How do we exist together? What are our values? What is it that I want? You have to also be able to stay physiologically self-soothed.

And so it might be at some point in the conversation you say, oh my God. I need to take five minutes. I'm realizing that I'm, I'm having trouble thinking straight. I'm getting a little bit worked up. I feel really concerned about how upset you are, and I'm getting caught up in that.

Let me just take a few minutes to breathe. I'm right here. I'm gonna cut my video. I'm gonna mute myself. I promise you, I'm just taking a few deep breaths. I would encourage you to do the same. I'll be right back on.

You might even do something like that. That would be, some people might hate it. I think that's fucking lovely.

I love that you are modeling crazy vulnerability in doing that, and you're also saying, it's important to me to be able to hear you and solve this effectively, and I can't do that without calming myself down. Gimme just a minute. And then you engage in that calming process.

And if that's not for you, then that's not for you. I'm not saying you need to do that exact thing. What I am saying is that you should have a regulation strategy for when you go to have these conversations, something that will help you self-soothe in the process.

The last piece to this, and this is just like a, a statement, I think.

If this is all new to you or it's all scary, or you're listening and you're thinking, fuck, I need to do this. I really do need to move in this direction. I think it's also really important to note that the lived experience of this going well is one of the most important components to trusting that you can do it.

The first time is just going to be probably excruciating, especially if this isn't the style in which you typically show up. It's gonna be really hard to do.

I would say that you should practice the behaviors all the time. So not even just with hard conversations, but kind of just in general, like whether email threads or even like praise based conversations or in leadership team meetings where you are focusing on, okay, hang on. What's my, what's my core point? And okay, what's our core values and what outcome do I want?

Where you're starting to like think about these things just in general in life with regard to your business? Of course, actually in life in general. Yeah, that'd be awesome. But specifically with regard to your practice, the business.

The point is that when it comes time to have a slightly more difficult conversation, you're gonna have some repetitions of the behaviors, and it will likely be easier to do in those moments, especially if you also are working on regulation.

So like I said before, if you're in a heightened state emotionally, if you're in a heightened physiological state, it's really hard to rely back on things that we do when we're calm, until we can get ourselves back down. It's not impossible, but it's difficult 'cause our forebrain goes a little bit offline. Not entirely, but like a little bit. It's a little less accessible.

And so if you are bringing yourself down, then you can stay connected to that frontal cortex and then you can engage in all the practices that you have been already practicing, making it much easier in the conversation.

Oh, goodness gracious. I am done. This wraps us up. I really hope this is helpful. I really hope this resonates with you.

I'm gonna ask again, please subscribe and review. Oh my gosh. Also, gimme a solid review for the podcast. If this has been a helpful for you, that just honestly helps more people get access to the podcast. It helps reach more of the people who need some of what we're talking about. So super appreciate it.

Super appreciate you. I love this. If you need a certain podcast episode, please don't be shy. Go to my website, www.taravossenkemper.com. Click on the contact form. Drop me a line. Tell me, Tara, bro, I need this big time specifically. Tell me that. I'm just kidding.

You can tell me whatever you want, but my point is, tell me what episode you're looking for. What is it that you need help with? I would love to do episodes that speak to you specifically.

That's way more my speed. Thank you again for being here. I will see you next time. Have a great day. See ya. Bye.