Culture Focused Practice

Hey, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper here, and you're listening to the Culture Focused Practice podcast. Welcome. Thank you for joining me today. I love having you here.

Today's episode is an owner's room special, which is one of my favorite types of episodes. Think of the owner's room as totally unfiltered space where I, or we, if I have a guest, are talking about what it's really like to lead a group practice.

It's not polished, it's not strategic. It's just a conversation about identity shifts and doubts and humanity and fallibility and the moments where we say, what the fuck am I even doing or thinking or seeing, or how do I do this? That's what it is. It's, it's that sort of experience in those moments.

Today's episode in particular is about what changes when you realize that you're running something that's alive. It's like a living organism rather than just operational. And also what that means for how you show up as a leader. Boom. There it is.

There is a very, very loose agenda. I can't even say agenda, that's not the right word. There's two parts to an owner's room. So the first section, there's a series of five questions. I don't think about these in advance. I choose them basically right before I start recording. So where this goes is, you know, it's in God's hands. I have no fucking idea.

The second part is a scenario. I have two listed. I'm debating on whether I will just do one or do both. They're different. They're different from one another, so I might do both. We shall see.

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All right, I'm gonna do this. Question number one for myself. From me, to me, when was the last time I made a decision that felt alive, not just logical?

I hate this question already because I am really in a place right now that I am feeling bogged down, and so I this like aliveness, you know, this sense of creativity and having space to explore and sort of, I, I think for me, the aliveness is when I have space to just chase my whims, like I'm sort of at my computer, you know, I open it up and I'm not immediately feeling pressure to go to my inbox or go to my to-do list or get to work on my rocks, or there's not anything that's pushing me, you know, where I can just sit and then chase a wild hair.

That's when I feel alive is when I can just sort of have fun chasing something down and diving into it and maybe I'm creating something in the process and maybe not, but maybe, so. What usually ends up happening, at least lately, is that I sit down and I'm just immediately inundated.

What I don't yet know is the entirety of why that's happening. And so I'm reaching the tail end of my integrator being out on leave. And so I think I'm feeling the pressure from that. But what I'm also thinking about, and this is very, very fresh. I mean this is like of of the past few days I've been thinking about this and grappling with it. So I don't have an outcome yet.

Like I said, this is an owner's room. You know where this goes, anybody. It's anybody's guess. But the past few days in particular, I've also been thinking about kind of the structure of some of our rhythms. And so what I mean by that is like our meeting frequency and like what are the meetings and what items live where, and in essence, how do we stay in communication with each other?

Like, how do we make sure that relevant and timely information is, you know, accessible and communicated, I guess, without having meetings that we don't need to have. And so I'm thinking about this because it feels like I'm doing this logical thing, but I don't feel alive doing it at all.

But if I get back to the original question a little bit, tangenting, is that a word? I don't know. It can be. When's the last time I made a decision that felt alive?

Gosh, I don't know. I don't know about the last time I made a decision that felt alive. I constantly have ideas that light me up. Like I have a lot of ideas and I feel alive wanting to chase those, and then I don't have like the bandwidth and the space because of some of these more logical obligations, to chase the wild hairs, which is very frustrating.

And then I end up feeling stuck, sort of like, um, just stuck. I think. I don't like feeling stuck. So it's been a little while, which I am, don't like, I do not like that. It's been a little while. So there's that. I think I'm a little bit in the thick of it. Yeah.

Okay. Question number two, what part of my team's behavior is actually a reflection of me?

Oh gosh. So this is a really great question. And again, it's hard because there's, right now and then there's, when I have an integrator in place. Right now, what I've noticed is that I am getting back into this place where I am deciding too many things. And I hate it. I fucking hate it. I hate it. It makes me exhausted.

And so that is a reflection of me and I think that there's probably a couple of things that go on that I end up being in a situation like this.

One is that I like to problem solve. I like to troubleshoot. So there's, you know, part of me that likes to gnaw on things. So there's that piece. A second thing is that when there's a product that has my name on it specifically, so if there's copy that's being written that I have to sign off on or a visual, I do want eyes on it.

I absolutely want the final say on whether or not this language is me. Like, yeah, this feels accurate. Let me tweak it a little bit and I want final say on like a visual for example. But maybe some of those things I could let go, not the copy piece, but like the visual for example, I could just entrust that the marketing director's gonna do it well 'cause she does do it well.

So I think I like deciding and then part of me likes deciding I. And also I think that, I think quickly, like my brain moves quickly and so I process information quickly. And I, I think when I scan something, you know, like if I'm scanning the physical space around me, metaphorically, I see all the rocks immediately that I wanna flip over and turn, and I'm thinking about the most likely scenario based on the person in front of me, based on the context, based on the people, the other person or people that are involved.

So there's like a lot that's happening and I, I just do it fast. And so I think that that's another thing where it's like, well, I can just do this real quick or I can just talk about this, or I can just help solve this problem. And then of course, having a vantage point that's higher up. I see how things are connected more than what.

You know, um, my client care coordinator might see, or even like my DCO, she might not see the connections between things in the same way that I do. So that's all some of the problem solving.

There's this other component to problem solving that is, hmm, me not being sure that everything is gonna get seen in the process. And so I think there's some fear probably if I'm talking out loud, it's like, oh yeah, there's a little bit of concern or trepidation or wariness, or, I feel unsure about this. It's a little unsettling that something will happen or a decision will be made that impacts a larger system.

And then there will be negative ramifications from that. And then also the cleanup that comes along with it, when the whole thing could have been avoided in the first place, had maybe I pointed out, no, this, this is something you're not considering. Like here's a variable, or No, we can't do that because there's this other other thing that you're, um, unaware of or, you know, whatever.

With that said, I think what that means is that I need to have more space and time to be able to chase down wild leadership hairs. Like how do I train my leaders to be good at leadership and management so that they can hold people accountable or that so that accountability takes place effectively.

And when I fill up all my space and time with stuff that's logical rather than alive, which might feel like helping somebody be empowered and sort of learn how to make effective decisions and potentially clean up. If something goes wrong, then I just end up in this default mode of, well, I got it.

I think I also over-function just probably, I don't know, I think I just tend to over-function, period. So I'm talking like it's probably this, it's probably this. And the reality is my whole life I just over-function. I do a lot of things. I like a lot of things. I can carry a lot of weight, largely speaking, and I'm just used to it. So when that weight is gone, I sort of feel like, wait, what the fuck? Like, ah, hang on.

And I may not even on purpose find something to fill the space and then, you know, we're back in the same situation. Maybe not the exact same situation, but like a related situation.

So yeah, maybe to close that all out. The part of my team's behavior right now that's actually a reflection of me is them coming to me with a lot of decisions when ultimately I want them to feel empowered to make the vast majority of those decisions, and I want way less involvement, again, complicated further by my integrator not being back yet from maternity leave.

Okay, question number three. Where in my leadership do I feel fake? Like I'm playing a role I outgrew? Ooh, I don't think fake is the word. That's not the word word that I would use right now. The word that I would use right now is fucking frustrated. Two words, fucking frustrated.

Where in my leadership do I feel bogged down? Do I feel like I'm stuck? Like imprisoned, maybe? Imprisoned is a strong word and feels accurate.

Most spaces. I don't have mental space to run. I don't have physical time to just let myself sit and see what comes up. So there's just constantly, so much right now that's going on that I feel like I need to do, and that arguably does need to be done. Some things are very time sensitive and so all of this feeds into, I have internally, I feel like I've outgrown almost the entire role of doing operator type things, and I am stuck there right now.

And, um, I don't like it if you can't tell. I'm not a fan. I don't feel alive. I feel stifled. I feel imprisoned, I feel stuck and sort of, um, stagnant actually.

Might be some of the sort of fogginess that I've been feeling lately too, is really more about stagnation. It's like, you know, I, I don't know why I always think about water metaphors or probably dog metaphors too, but I just think about a pond when it gets filled. There's no water movement, there's no filtration, and the whole thing just sits sort of like murky. And you, you're like, if you were swimming in it and you're wearing your goggles and you still can't see where you're going.

That's kind of how it feels. But if that water was moving, it would clear up some of the murkiness and some of the algae and, you know, you would see fish swimming around. Yeah, so it sort of feels like that stagnation.

With freedom for me comes like that fluidity in whatever liquid metaphor you wanna use. Let's I feel like I can breathe again. I feel like I can see clearly, I feel like I am sloughing off stuff that doesn't fit and like I'm able to have a very clear sense for what's exciting and where I should be and how I need to spend my time.

Yeah. So, okay, I'm gonna keep going.

Question four. What's one part of my business that feels like a living, breathing thing, and do I treat it like that? Honestly, for me, the whole business feels like that. The whole business is that. I mean, this whole notion of a living practice, you know, it's languaged that way on purpose because the practice is alive.

It's a living organism. And so for me, the entire thing feels like it's constantly pulsing and interacting with the each other. Like pieces are interacting with other pieces, and there's constantly intersections and offshoot growths and ideas that feel reflective of the practice, the whole ecosystem, the current state of it. So the entire thing feels alive.

There's very few things in my practice that I feel like are set in stone like. Very, very few things. I don't know if anything is something might be set right now. Like we have policies and guidelines and processes, et cetera. But at any given moment if we expand or contract or something shifts, anything can be on the chopping block that is related to that shift and slash or could also like decrease in scope to reflect the state of the practice at wherever it is, you know?

So it's hard to say there's one part of my business that feels like a living, breathing thing because it's the whole fucking thing that feels that way.

That's a living, breathing organism. Taking in feedback. I am taking in feedback and some of that feedback is internal feedback. My felt sense of what it's like to engage with this thing, trying to keep circumstances in mind because of course that's gonna make things a little bit messier, you know, meaning my integrator being out, for example, so I'm stepping and doing a little bit more, but I'm trying to keep circumstances in mind.

I'm using myself as feedback, and I'm also questioning what was the original intention of this thing? Is it working? Is it effective? Is it doing what I wanted it to do? Are we wasting time? I do not like to waste time. I do not like to do things if we don't need to do them.

So I would say I always treat it like it's living and breathing and alive.

Okay. Fifth and final question before we move on to the scenarios. What would change if I stopped trying to fix my business and started listening to it?

Oh my gosh. Hmm. This is a super hard question. I think in order to listen to my business, I would need to be able to stop doing operational things and step back.

And so it's really hard to do that right now. Or maybe honestly, the fact that I can't is telling me something about the business. Maybe it's telling me that if we're a a person down, we shouldn't be moving forward with rocks in the same way. Maybe it's telling me that I need to stop answering questions for people and shift hardcore into focusing on empowering them and helping them make decisions.

And even then, one of my ideas, I have this whole leadership manifesto, and just the other day, I thought to myself, I need a decision making framework or series of questions that are integrated with the leadership manifesto. Because I could give my leadership team a manifesto, they have access to it, and I could say, Hey, I want you to implement this. But that's not really helpful 'cause it's like implementing a theory. I mean, it takes a little while to really get a feel for this thing.

And so if I had a series of questions that they asked themselves to ensure that they were operating from this framework, whenever any sticky situation came up, that would be helpful. That would be a way of me helping to systemize a cohesive, unified leadership philosophy and enactment.

And it would not be me answering questions and helping people run through their own scenarios all the time, or helping troubleshoot all the time. For the record, I love troubleshooting. So it's not that I don't like doing this thing. It is that too much of it results in me. Ceiling bogged down like I am trying to scuba dive in disgusting, fucking murky algae pond water.

I also think that, I don't know if I would say I try to fix my business a lot. I think I probably, hmm. I think there are moments historically with my business where I have tried too hard, like it's almost like I paid too close of attention to it. And I think that my very dear friend at homie told me, Tara, you need to let it breathe.

And so for me, the caveat with that is I can let it breathe if there's somebody that can keep it running, like if the infrastructure is set up, then I can step back.

And again, I don't mean to keep reiterating the same point. It's really hard to do that right now, specifically, and further still the fact that I can't step back in a significant way, given. Even in the circumstances that we are in might mean that I have not done a good enough job of training leadership and empowering them to fully own things.

I don't think that this is me trying to fix my business and that as I'm talking out loud about it, that does feel like what listening to the business would be.

It's also hard to talk about this without like seeing and feeling myself in it because I mean, I, my body physiologically how it feels, how I'm thinking about things, everything feels like data to me. So of course I have data from people around me. That's really, really important.

And I have my own internal data, and so I tend to use myself in a lot of these, like I'm listening to my business. But I would say listening is not only being aware of what's happening for you, but then of course listening is also taking in information from the people around you. So I, I think that that probably isn't obvious, but I still kind of feel obligated to say it.

Let's do one more variation of this question and then we'll move on to the scenario. So question number five originally is what would change if I stopped trying to fix my business and started listening to it? I think a related component is what would change if I stepped back from my business and started seeing it from a distance.

That is probably the thing for me that feels like it will be most doable and that I'm actively trying to work towards. And I think that that's related because if I can create some distance between me and this thing, one, I always have fresh ideas, almost always like rare that I don't have fresh ideas when I can create some distance.

Two, it's like being really close to something. It sort of makes it hard to see and hear clearly. And so I think if I can step back, like I'm creating some of that sure. emotional but also logistical distance, then I can sort of see it in its full form and I can hear it, like, I can hear this thing clearly now. I can hear the whole song and not just the person that's singing right next to me.

Oh my God. As I'm talking, I'm just realizing how ready I am for my integrator to be back. She's coming back part-time, initially for probably two months, and then we'll transition back full-time. And in on my conversations with her, what I have realized and what I've been talking with her about is that she will be more integrator and more involved than she was.

That's what I'm fucking pumped about. So it's like this next iteration of our visionary integrator relationship that being able to continue our evolution again, this is things continuing to live and breathe and evolve and grow.

Okay, I'm gonna move on now. Let's do scenarios.

I hope those questions are helpful. Anytime I do these questions that I'm talking, I always end up thinking to myself, man, I hope like hell this actually makes sense and resonates with people. Because as I'm talking, I'm basically externally processing. And so when I do that, it's not like I'm clearly presenting something.

It's like I'm sort of wandering and like we'll see what comes up. And I know sometimes when that happens, I can forget to bring it all the way back around full circle. So I hope like hell, that's not the case. I hope that this resonates, basically.

Okay, let's do this now. Scenario number one. Ooh, this is a good one.

You're sitting at your desk after a full day of back-to-back meetings, a hiring decision, a conflict check-in, a marketing proposal, a financial forecast, and it hits you. None of this shit felt like it connected to each other. You're doing all the things.

Does that sound familiar for any of you? But you can't quite find the thread that ties it all together. You wonder if you're actually building something coherent. Or if you've just become a glorified air traffic controller for your business.

You open your notebook and write, what is this business even rooted in anymore? That question scares you more than you want to admit.

I'll be honest with you, this is how I've been feeling as of late. Where I'm doing a bunch of things and I have my hands in a variety of pots, and I am wondering why? Why am I doing all of these things? Why is this not interconnected? What am I missing? Something is off. What is happening right now? Why does this feel so foggy? Why does this feel so hazy?

So let me try to just pull myself out of this a little bit, because as I read that, I was like, oh God, this really is resonating. I have a couple of thoughts about what might be going on in the scenario.

In one case, it might be that this person doesn't have a vision. There is no clear vision. So to say, what is this business even rooted in anymore to me is not reflective of a need to, you know, rip it all apart and, uh, gut it is the language that's coming to mind. It's really reflective of the current setup is not working for me. And maybe that's the difference between seeing a business as a separate entity and seeing it as a alive. I don't, I don't fucking know. I don't know.

But my point is, that's what this tells me. Like, what is this business even rooted anymore translation, I don't feel grounded. This isn't working. That's different. I don't feel grounded. This isn't working. Why do I have my hands in all the pots? Like, those are actually the questions that I think that this person might be asking.

So I don't feel grounded might point to a need for a vision. Not only a clear vision, but also operationalized values with clear examples, a core focus to help drive decisions about what you do as the business and not, a marketing ecosystem where the strategy is scalable, repeatable, clear. It's grounded. It's rooted in something that every month or quarter things are an outgrowth of that thing.

And also, I think, and this is not necessarily vision exactly, but for me what comes up is the accountability chart. If you're the visionary and you're in all of those meetings, I don't think that makes sense.

Depending on your setup and on your business structure, the visionary should not be in a high operator seat. And again, the irony of me saying that is not lost on me, and I've been saying this whole episode that I'm like bogged down by things like this and that I, primarily, it has to do with my integrator being out and dot, dot, dot, you know, fill in the blank.

But my thought is that if you were looking at an accountability chart, and for those who don't know accountability chart, like that concept, and even like the vision and the core focus and values being connected, all of that, that's all EOS, that's all the entrepreneurial operating system.

So then in that accountability chart, if I'm getting back to the task at hand, I would wonder what are the responsibilities listed in the seat that you are sitting in? And so if there are five very broad responsibilities in an accountability chart, responsibilities are not the same things as position descriptions. They're not all of your duties and expectations listed out. It's five broad, major responsibilities that you have.

In my mind, if I'm seeing hiring decision, conflict check-in, marketing proposal, financial forecast, i'm wondering if there are too many things listed as responsibilities under your seat.

And I think there's honestly a lot of directions we could go in this, but maybe just the two that have stood out the most to me are the vision, values, core focus, et cetera. And also the accountability chart clarity.

And then I think a third component to this that I would encourage is starting to do at this point, if this was happening, I would want you to start doing weekly clarity breaks.

So again, this is an EOS based concept. It's just sitting with no email open. Get a fucking journal, like, don't open your laptop, print out the questions in advance, get a journal, go sit down and write. And it's a series of like, I forget, 10 or 15 or 20 questions that are high level questions about your business.

And so the point in doing this is that you could start to write and process what is actually going on. And so maybe the answer that you're seeking, which is what's the, the thread that ties it all together comes as a result of taking some time and space to write and process and feel about your business rather than be in the thick of it.

I am so internally and externally a little bit, I guess laughing at the, would it be hypocrisy, irony? I don't know. I'm saying this to you and I'm like, oh fuck, I'm gonna. Stop recording this and schedule a clarity break for myself right now. Like I need clarity breaks in my own life. I realize it's been a little minute since I've done one.

So I think having them back in a consistent way is something that helps you to answer that question. You know, the, again, the question sort of being posed is what is this business even rooted in anymore? A translation is why am I doing this? Like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? What is going on?

Answers to those questions can be a result of taking clarity breaks. So that's why I'm talking about those.

And I think also, maybe this goes without saying, and you've already heard it from all of your group practice owner friends, I mean, I think this is just what happens. I think that the first time this happened for me, it was really scary. Like I did not understand. I thought I had to sell it all. I thought I needed to shut it all down. I thought I've done the entire wrong thing, and maybe I still have those feelings. Uh, yeah, sure.

Not really those thoughts associated with the feelings, but I think at this point, when those things happen, what it is is almost always just me. Like something about the mix is not working and there's a problem, and I just need to either root it out or separate myself enough that I can see it with a little more clarity from that distance.

Okay. I think that's enough for scenario one. I am gonna do scenario two because it is different. It's a little bit different.

So you've been working your ass off to get your leadership team to take ownership. You've read the books. You've implemented EOS or another structure. You have even started regular feedback conversations.

But there's still this gnawing feeling that something is off. People nod in meetings, but they don't follow through. The vibe feels flat, even though on paper everything looks fine. You find yourself wondering if it's a leadership issue, or if your entire culture is growing in a direction that doesn't actually align with who you are anymore.

You look around and think, did I build this for them or for me? And then you immediately feel guilty for even asking.

First and foremost, you gotta squash that guilt. Fine. Feel guilty. Let it come up. Okay? Acknowledge it. Give it a little hug. Set it the fuck to the side. Set it to the side.

Secondly, I built a practice to serve myself and others, and, and the practice that I have built is largely going to be reflective of me because it is mine.

It is of my flesh and bone, not really, but kind of like my blood, sweat, and tears have gone into this. The direction that it's going, the vibe that I want, those are my decisions to make. After that's clear, though, not even though. Just after that's clear. It's also for everybody who's a part of it, but it can't just be for others because it will constantly change and not based on something grounded, but based on the whims of others and how they feel and what they want.

And guess what? Those others that you might love and hold very near and dear to your heart, it's really likely they're not going to be around forever. I love my people. There have been a couple that talk about wanting to retire with me. That'd be incredible. I'm not gonna bank on it and not because I don't believe them when they say it, but because shit changes.

Life changes, shit happens. People change, people evolve. They want different things. They, you know, they're in different stages and phases of life. I will remain the constant though, and so it has to be reflective of me. And then from there, the people who are a part of it, fuck yeah, I want them to be cared for.

I want them to feel good being here, but I'm not exclusively building it for them. In my mind, that's not sustainable. That doesn't make any sense.

So I think I'm like immediately addressing that. The final, you know, two sentences, you look around and think, did I build this for them or for me? And then you feel guilty.

My thought is, yeah, you, you're building it for yourself, like, and from a very logistical perspective, the liability is entirely on your shoulders. So I mean, I think it needs to work for you.

Secondly, second point to this, that was firstly, this is secondly.

I am always of the opinion that this should be a discussion. So if you are wondering like is this a leadership issue, is this a culture issue? Like what is happening? I'm going to talk to my team. You know, I'm gonna sit with them, especially leadership team in particular, what's happening with them. Ugh, that's important, like that needs to be discussed with leadership.

And I would do this as a group. So if this was a global thing happening, by global I mean with your global like leadership global, that is telling, I think that's telling. I would talk about it as a group and I might just say, I have this really gnawing feeling that something is off. And I see everybody nod, like we're talking in L 10 meetings or leadership team meetings and I see everybody nod and we're on the same page, I think, but then there's not follow through.

And you could objectively say like, you know, the past four weeks or five weeks or two months, our to-do list items are averaging, like them being done is averaging 30%. So you might like present evidence to support this, that it's not just your feeling, but also here's evidence to suggest there's no follow through.

And then I might say the vibe feels flat and I don't know why and I don't understand what's going on. And if I were to look at this in writing, it seems like everything's honky dory, but it doesn't feel that way. I need help figuring out what's going on.

I would start there. That's where I would start with leadership, with an open and honest discussion.

If they continue to tell you everything is fine. No, it's all great. It's good. Everything's really good. You could separate them out and do one-on-one meetings. That's fine. I might do that. Or you could revisit your vision to see if it is in alignment with you. Or revisit the values or revisit the core focus.

This is where I would start to wonder what was happening internally for me. If everybody seems happy and then both in group and then one-on-one, they reiterate that they're genuinely happy,

I would really question what was missing then. So it might be something like in your values, there's not anything about taking initiative and being a go-getter and being self-starters. You know? It could be like you want more of that energy in the team.

It could be that you have told them that you want something, but there hasn't been teaching or training or support around developing project ownership or leadership or empowering them to sort of move forward and do things of their own accord in relation to the vision projects, rocks, et cetera.

And I mean, I guess it could be that the direction that it's going is not what you want, where you, let's say something has changed pretty drastically in your own life. I will say for myself that it feels like every time after I have a child, I have three small children after every child, there was a series of value awakenings.

And I would say that I kind of always felt tuned in with values. Like I always did things that I knew I wanted to, but having my first child especially really shed light on how I was getting stuck in doing something because I felt like I had to. And that resulted in a whole kind of career change, honestly, where I said, fuck this, and then shifted and got into group practice ownership in a serious way.

So I think too, it's sort of like context might be helpful if you were in a position where you had some things happening in life and now you're wondering, is this it? Maybe that's a thing happening, like maybe it's, maybe it's you. Maybe stuff is changing for you and that's totally fine.

If something changes for you and you have this huge values awakening, or you're shedding something that doesn't fit, you don't have to force yourself to fit back in what was. To me that's part of like this living, breathing organism is that it gets to live and breathe and evolve along with you.

And so it could be where you say to the team, your leadership team in particular, I am hearing you all tell me that things are fine and that you feel good about this. This is not working for me. I want more energy. I want more enthusiasm.

I want more excitement. I want people to be awake and engaged and alert in meetings. I want active involvement. I want proactivity. I want people taking initiative. I want something different than what I'm seeing right now, and I am going to start working towards that thing.

I'm letting you know right now because I want you to be on board with me and I want you to do this with me. And also I don't want it to come as a surprise once I start. What questions do you have, you know? And then I might do something like that. So.

Yeah, I think for both of these scenarios actually, it just sort of feels like there's, I don't know if there's any one specific thing. It's, it's like, um, I don't think there's one specific answer. I think it's just nuanced and I think it's personal and I think it's contextual and I think it's circumstantial and I think it's people related. There's so many things that could be happening.

And in any given scenario or situation, reflect, ask questions, engage other people, create emotional distance if you can, to get clear on what it is that's most important to you and what you wanna see to, then you get to be able to clearly communicate those things to the people around you.

I think this has gone on long enough. I think we're done.

I so appreciate you being here with me and letting me fumble through all of these questions. I hope, like I said, the scenario and the questions were helpful for you. And otherwise, I'll see you next time. Thanks for being here. Bye.