Integrity at Scale™

All righty, my friends. Welcome to the Culture Focus Practice. This is Dr. Tara Vossenkemper, and we're gonna talk about accountability without fear today. This is the day. So this is one episode of many this quarter that focuses on reading the system, designing conditions, and also choosing coherence whenever there are sometimes very real trade-offs.
Here's what I'll say. I think there are a lot of leaders that seek to avoid accountability because they are afraid of what that means. They're trying to not instill fear. They're trying to not be punitive. They're afraid that if they speak up, people are gonna leave. They don't wanna be the bad guy. Like, there's a variety of things that happen, and ultimately, I am pro avoiding fear-based accountability, that to me, fear is not respect.
You know, fear is fear, period. And also, when we do this, there are also times where we end up avoiding fear by avoiding directness. We either soften the standard, we might dance around the concern, we might not say something directly, or we wait six months with growing resentment until we have to say something very explicit, you know, very, very clear, and that is a giant pain in the ass.
We also don't want to do that. I would really like for this to be practical. That's kind of the point of this episode. And so I don't want to say I'm gonna walk you through a formula, but I am gonna walk through kind of a basic structure for how to have this conversation or how to have these types of conversations.
And of course, the content of the conversation is going to depend on, I mean, whatever it is that you need to talk about. So that is TBD because it's based on you. So let's start with an agenda. We have four items on our agenda. Number one, start with what happened; number two, hear the other person's read; number three, say what the standard requires; and then number four, make the next agreement. So agenda item number one, start with what happened. This is where observations and objective truths are your friend. You are just noting something that has happened. I'll say for myself what can happen is that I will just have a feeling about something.
I hate saying, like, things that are, "This is true about me," 'cause I don't actually know. Like, I don't fucking know compared to the rest of the population whether or not this is you know, outside the realm of normal. But I know that I tend to recognize patterns before I consciously recognize them.
And so I end up having, you know, you have feelings about something, where it's like, ooh, there's something, like, ugh, something's happening, something's building, but I can't name it clearly yet. So, that sucks for me because sometimes I don't have a start with what happened. I have to, like, wait for something explicit, you know?
So in this case, when we're starting with what happened, we want to start with something that is observable, and you want to start it also in the realm that's relevant for that person. So it's gonna be about whether it's a due date or whether it's a project or whether it's a task or whether it's something specific and observable that you are noticing about this person that you're seeking to have this conversation with.
This should not be hearsay, and if you have some hearsay, it should not be the only evidence that you present when you are going to have this conversation. So it might be that you give an example or two or three. I know EOS says that you should give more than one example whenever you're having conversations with people, so let's go for three.
And then potentially you could say with consent from the other person, "I also know of this example from, my integrator let me know about this other thing happening," or my clinical director or my director of finance and admin. Like, here are some other examples outside of just what I've observed.
Trying to keep them as, again, black and white as possible and hopefully those are things you could audit and confirm for yourself before you actually bring them up. Here's something to keep in mind. You don't need 1,000 examples. I would not do a list of this and this and this and this and this.
I would do probably three, and maybe with one external, and then that's it. Your point should be the same. Like, here's the thing that I'm noticing, here's evidence to support it. Like, here are the pieces, you know, working together. Something really important in this is that, I hate saying you should, but it would behoove you to do this without feeling.
And I don't mean stop caring for the person in front of you. I mean, if you feel frustrated by it, try to just set that aside and be clear and concise without being robotic when you're talking to the person in front of you. So it's not like, "Here's my list of complaints. I'm super annoyed," or, "I'm really frustrated about this.
These are all the things that I'm observing," and you're, like, throwing all these things at them. We're just trying to solve something. You know, we're trying to hold somebody accountable, and we're not trying to overly chastise or make it punitive or make it fear-based, you know? So we still have to be clear, though, about what we're observing and what we've noticed.
And so try to do it without any, um, like intensity, like emotional intensity around it. I think that's ultimately a, a better way of saying it. Less about, like, frustration, just in general, like, not high levels of emotionality, just, like, calmly and clearly saying, "This is what I've noticed."
Okay, so that's agenda item number one, starting with what happened. Here is what I think happens next. Before we get to agenda item number two, what I'll say is that most people skip what I'm about to say, and that is problematic for a lot of different reasons. So agenda item number two is hear the other person's read. You should start here.
Once you've clearly laid out, "Okay, this is what I've observed that is not in alignment with what we talked about earlier or with what's expected of this position or the person in the seat," whatever it might be, open the floor to them. Ask them, "Talk to me. What's going on for you? What are you thinking about this?
How do you understand this? What questions do you have? Like, have you also noticed? Were you aware that this is what we wanted and it's not happening? Like, level with me. Like, I wanna hear from you. I want you to not make an argument for yourself. That's not what this is about. I want you to share your side with me.
Share what is happening for you as a person right in front of me." What that does is it helps me get as much context as possible, but also it helps this person to feel like they have space to be seen and heard and understood. And what that does is it keeps our relationship intact, and then we end up solving problems together rather than me doing this in a top-down, dictatorial way. Is that a word, dictatorial? Dictator-like? Directorial is a word. If it's not a word, I think that it should be
I always, almost always, once we have a topic I mean really probably like 98% of the time, I wanna go to the other person just to ask them, like, talk. Just share openly. It's almost like free association, you know? You could guide them with questions, but it kind of feels like free association.
Like, here's the topic, like you tell me what do you know about it? What do you think about it? What do you know? What are you hearing me say? How have you understood it, et cetera. Any questions you want to ask, things that are getting them to expound on the topic, whatever the issue is at hand. Then, this is important, and I'm not trying to talk down to you while I'm talking about this, it just feels like I need you to understand.
I need it to be clear. It is very important. Don't rebut what they are saying. Just listen. Just listen to what they're saying, regardless of whether or not it's true or they are totally off, or you remember, "No, we had that conversation. I told you this," you know? None of that fucking matters.
Like, none of it matters, because the reality is from a very high level they are going to do the thing that they need to do that is expected of them, and if they don't, then they will ultimately have some form of discipline happen. So when we're doing this, again, this, I'm thinking these are one of the first times.
Like, I'm not gonna have the same conversation with a person over and over and over and over again. So let's say this is one of your first conversations. I should have probably prefaced this whole episode with that. So let them talk, and then seek to understand, "Okay, cool, so you didn't know that you were expected to do this," or, "You weren't clear," or, "You thought this," or, "Oh, your understanding was that."
You know, just basically paraphrase back to them whatever it is that you're hearing. And it could also be just capacity. Like, "Oh, shit, your dog just died. I had no idea." Like, "Oh, my goodness, no wonder. You're feeling behind. There's a lot of things falling off your plate right now. Okay, cool. This is good to know."
Whatever the case may be, hear them. Listen. Don't listen to respond. Listen to listen. That's it. That is hearing the other person to read. Really important, and again, important early in the conversation. People are much more likely to listen to you, like take in what you're saying, if they feel heard.
I feel like as a leader, sort of as a boss, as a, a person with authority over others, I do feel like it's my responsibility that they feel heard in order to also hear. Like- I don't need to be heard first. That to me doesn't matter. I want them to feel heard, understood, safe, secure, like, "Okay, we're in this together," and then they're gonna be way more receptive to whatever input I have.
That is absolutely just very, very important. So we've got starting with what happened, hearing other person's read, again, which
Gives you information as well. It's not just, "Well, I didn't know." And then you're like, "Okay, well now you know. Do it." It gives you context. It can also highlight sometimes gaps in training. You get information that not only helps you to solve the problem right now, but also if there's a larger, like, a global problem or like, a structural problem, it can help to point out what those gaps are, which is beneficial to you and the practice at large.
So that's another reason why we wanna hear the other person's read first. And one more reason why this comes before you get to talk is because the minute you start talking, their response is going to be much more narrow in scope because you've already set the parameters, so now they're going to narrow in a little bit further and continue the conversation.
If they start, you're going to almost like cast a wider net, so you're more likely to catch things that you would otherwise miss. So hear the other person read. That's agenda item number two. Let's move on to number three, say what the standard requires. I already said this, but it doesn't matter if they go first.
Like, you don't need to listen to respond because ultimately there are standards and there are expectations for any seat. And so let them talk first, and then you still have to fall back on, "Okay, now I have context, I have understanding of what's happening for you. Here's what the standard is."
It's whatever it might be. If there's a report that's due every single week and you figure out like, oh gosh, this thing isn't happening, you know, you've heard from them, like you've heard their understanding of the responsibility. They've talked about what got in the way over the past couple of weeks in terms of completing the report or not completing it.
Now you say, "Okay, cool. This makes sense to me. It makes sense to me why we haven't seen it over the past two weeks. So what are we going to do?" Because the report has to be reviewed or submitted or whatever every Friday by noon, because the lead has to then be able to address whatever is overdue from this report, your lead has to move on this, or this other person has to be able to do X, Y, or Z.
So that's where we are. Here is the standard. Here's the expectation. For saying what the standard requires, it really is that simple. This is what's expected. This is what needs to be done. Here's the either expected result or here's the owner, here's the timing, here's the rhythm, here's what the expected outcome is, and it's your responsibility.
Very direct. That to me is almost like the smallest part of the conversation. It's opening it up, it's hearing from them, saying in a sentence or two, "Okay, this is what needs to be," you know, "Here's what the standard is." And then we're shifting to agenda item number four, which is making the next agreement.
So at this point, this to me is where it becomes, I don't want to say collaborative in terms of let's shift the standard around, but I want to say collaborative in terms of I have positioned myself and this person so that we're on the same team trying to solve the problem. I've heard them, I understand the context, I see what happened.
I might even feel for them, where it's like, "Ooh, yeah, okay, I see why this is hard to do." And then I set the standard. "Okay, well, this is due every Friday at noon. Like, it has to be done because there's seven other things connected to it. What are we going to do about this? Like, how do we get this to happen on a consistent basis?
It falls in your camp. In terms of, like, from an accountability chart perspective, this is yours to own. What should we do?" Now we are going to start collaborating, so we're making the next agreement. Whether it's the next action, whether it's the next owner, whether it's the next due date, whether it's the next
Scheduled event on a calendar, whatever it is, we're saying it explicitly. And then I'm doing the same thing for myself, where I say, "Okay, cool. So you're gonna start doing this. This is your plan. I'm gonna check in on you at this point. I'm gonna review this on a monthly basis for the next two quarters."
I don't fucking know. I... Maybe something like that. I probably wouldn't. I would probably review it twice and be like, "All right. Good job. You're done," you know, or, "I'm done reviewing." But ultimately, you would also set some sort of, like, marker or threshold for yourself so that you're auditing this thing.
Or maybe you say, "I'm gonna check on this twice over the next quarter, but I'm not gonna tell you when," because you want to ensure that it's happening without having to, say, "Every week I'm gonna follow up on this." Additionally, you might say, "Is there any, like, support you need that's realistic, you know, a realistic level of support you need to do this?"
The answer might be none. It might just be the person says, "Look, I didn't realize how important this was. I really hate doing it, but you are right, it's part of this role and I, I just need to buck up and get it done, and I'm gonna schedule it for Fridays from 11:00 to noon. I'm gonna block that time on my calendar, and I will just...
I'm gonna spend my time doing this." Cool. You could also troubleshoot a little more and check, like, are there ways we could make this go faster? Is there something you could seek to automate while you're doing this? You know, there's some things that we do that we could just fucking automate, you know?
That we don't even think about. We're just so used to kind of, like, doing them almost, like, rote, you know? Or, like, uh, consistently that we don't... It's habitual, we're not thinking beyond this sucks. Like, how do I get rid of it in a way that's actually, like, automated? So-
That's just another thing when you're collaborating or making the next agreement. This is where, for me, like collaboration, support, coaching, and then also the specifics of, okay, what does this look like? That's where all of it kind of comes together. So
Okay, why this matters. Why this matters, you ask? Tell me, Tara, it's so important. Why does it matter? I think it matters for a lot of reasons. So one is that you need accountability. For any structure to function consistently, there has to be accountability. I love people, and as much as I love my people and employees in general, including myself, we drop the ball on shit.
There's things we don't want to do. There's things that are fucking boring. There are things that we're not interested in, but we know we have to do it, and we might put it off. And so people just operate differently in the world. And so while some folks are very regimented and structured and will have a very kind of by-the-book, consistent schedule, others might...
I mean, I'm not pointing fingers at myself or anything, but I am pointing fingers at myself, are much more loosey-goosey with some components of their schedule and will actively avoid doing shit that they hate. So, like yours truly, thank you very much
And because that is the case, we need accountability in order to ensure that the practice, the business, everything is, like, continuing to function well, as seamlessly as possible. The second thing for me about why this matters, so not only just, like the general structure needs to continue functioning, but the second thing is that
We're not robots, you know? We're not, inhuman. We're not cold and aloof. Some of us might be a little more aloof than others, but I think that a business, it's made up of people, and with any person in the business, there's going to be a variety of different relationships that they have in that business.
So it just makes me think about neurons and how they talk to each other, and, like, synaptic clefts, and, like, the movement of neurotransmitters, and sort of the way that they stay entangled, but also they're like these individual neurons, you know? My point is that
This also matters because people matter. The people who make up your system matter. Your relationship with them matters. We want accountability, but we don't want tyrants. We don't want people to be afraid of us. I, I don't... fuck, I don't want that. If you're listening to this, there's no way you want that.
I mean, maybe, but geez, I can't really imagine. We want healthy employee-employer dynamics at any business that we're a part of. That's what I want for you. That's what I want for myself.
And I know power dynamics and differentials and authority and power. And I mean, I know all of that stuff, and the reality is I still wanna work really hard to try to make sure that my people
feel supported and cared for and, like, they are able to do their job effectively, even the stuff that they don't like, and not being micromanaged or berated if something is, you know, going off or wrong. Like, so to me it's important because There's also this relational component to accountability, which is I want to hold you accountable, but I also- see you.
I also want you to feel seen. I also know that you're human and people make mistakes, and how do we do both of these things, you know? So for me, that's why it matters. Ultimately, what you can carry forward with you if you wanted a takeaway, just jot down those four things, you know, before any next conversation you have about accountability, before you have to say to somebody, "Ooh, hey, yikes, you're dropping the ball here," write down one, two, three, four.
One, what happened? What did you observe? Two
what you, as in you, like talking to you right now, need to understand, so that's getting the context, the circumstances from the other person. Three, what the standard is, and then four, collaborate and identify next steps. Write that down and then on a fucking Post-it on your computer, and then move forward with it.
That's super easy to do. And that's all I have for you today. So I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day. Of course, subscribe to the podcast or send this to somebody who you think definitely needs to hear it. There are related episodes below. It has been a pleasure. I will see you on the next episode.
Thanks. Bye